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Tuesday, February 9, 2016

Why Do You Care What Adolf Hitler Believed?


Too many people use Hitler as a comparison to anything they find repugnant and try to make a fallacy of extension. 

It happens so often on the internet there is even a term for it. It is called Godwin's law, an adage claiming that the longer an internet discussion goes on the probability of a comparison involving Nazism or Hitler approaches 1.

That bad habit diminishes the impact and the dangers of the types of propagandizing that the Nazi party employed to create the most repugnant episode of modern history.  The denial makes it easier for others to repeat the same methods.  I see too many people trying to avoid hard and ugly truths when I see people in denial that Adolf Hitler was a professing, practicing Christian.  

There are too many who try to revise the history with other fallacies that are even more harmful to us because they leave those who ignore these hard lessons vulnerable to similar evils. 

 Teaching a false history dishonors the level of sacrifice and courage that the Christians who DID stand against his regime should be remembered and honored for so doing. 

 Those who twist history in denial that Christianity was a tool of the Nazis are those that most disrespect the righteous of their Christian coreligionists who stood against the Nazis.

Far too many Christians are in complete denial that Nazis were overwhelmingly professing, practicing Christians.  It wasn't only Adolf Hitler who professed himself a Christian. 
They will deny this saying that those who insist Adolf Hitler was a Christian, in particular a Catholic, is only an attack on either Christianity or Catholicism. 

The No True Scotsman fallacy is then often employed in this denial.  He wasn't a "true" Christian, therefore, not a Christian at all is the excuse.  I'm not here to argue whether or not he was adherent to the beloved aspects of faith of each individual Christian reader, but to point out the facts of history and of his life that show that he professed Christian faith, that the Nazi party embraced Christian faith within its policies, that the Nazi party used Christian faith as one of its most powerful tools of gaining ardent support, and ardent support for some of the worst atrocities of human history.

I'm tired of seeing the history revisionist claptrap that the Nazis and Hitler were anti-religion or pagan or that of the millions of Christians who lost their lives that they were targets because they were Christian. 

The symbolism that some will call pagan within many of the Nazi insignia were also used by Christianity in medieval Europe, they were getting back to their roots.  

Any and all Christians who were victims of the Nazis were victimized because they either weren't supporting the right "flavor" of Christianity or because they recognized how disgustingly the Nazis were misappropriating the more antisemitic passages of the New Testament to justify their atrocities and gain allegiance from the Christian populace. The Christians who were political enemies of Adolf Hitler and the rest of the Nazi party were not murdered because of their religion, but because they were against the goals of the fascists running the government.

Hitler was rabidly anti-atheist. The Nazi party portrayed Communism as a Jewish plot, so Jews who were religious were portrayed as evil because they rejected or were murderers of Jesus, Jews who were more secular were portrayed as evil because they were out to destroy Christianity.  Is any of this sounding famiiar?  

Nazis killed atheists because they were atheist. Hitler did not kill Christians because they were Christian.  The Christians killed by the Nazi party were Christians who were against his goals and abuse of Christianity.  They were not killed for being Christian.   

It is repugnant and harmful history revisionism to claim that the Nazi party was anti religion and persecuted Christians for being Christian.  The Nazis, whose greatest political rivals were the "Godless Communists" and whose Party Platform had an official position clause directly supporting "Positive Christianity"  used religion as one of its most important tools. 

Prior to the Nazis stated attempt to unite Catholics and Protestants, the Catholic Church had NO opposition to the Nazi party and had officially made a Concordant with Hitler.  Bishops sent him official birthday greetings and blessings every birthday from the time he was popularly elected Chancellor of Germany until the last birthday before his death. That is evidence against another claim often made, that he had been excommunicated by the church. Bishops do not send official Birthday greetings from the church to one who has been excommunicated by the church.  Nazi soldiers wore "Gott mit uns" (God is with us ) on their belt buckles.  To become an SS officer one pledged to God and to Hitler.

Thank God not all Christians embraced the Nazis and their ideology, but there were so many millions of Christians across Europe who DID and who embraced the Nazi ideology as something they declared a holy cause.

The Allies who won World War 2 were comprised of a majority of soldiers who were Christian in their religion. 

Despite the fallacy that there was no Jewish resistance to the Holocaust, sheer numbers alone tell us that it is a certainty that  Jews would not exist today were it not for the sacrifice of millions of Christians who fought the Nazis.  I would not be alive today if it were not for the actions of millions who imperiled their lives in battle and many who lost their lives in doing so. At the same time, we cannot forget the reality, or try to cloak that it was  the silence and complicity of millions of others that had placed the Jews in the genocide in the first place.

Of the 9 highest ranking and most evil Nazi officers all were practicing Roman Catholics save one. Many of those nine later converted to the Nazi attempt to "join the two Great Confessions" of Protestant and Catholic under the German Evangelical Christian church

1. Heinrich Himmler – Roman Catholic

 2. Adolf Hitler- Roman Catholic Hitler is listed as second most evil because Himmler was the architect of the “final solution”.

3. Reinhard Heydrich “The Hangman” - in 1936, Heydrich left the Catholic Church and joined the Hitler approved German Evangelical Church movement led by Hitler appointed Reich Bishop, Ludwig Mueller

 4. Joseph Mengele – notorious for barbaric experiments upon concentration camp victims – Roman Catholic

 5.Adlolf Eichmann – left the Catholic Church in 1937 and joined the German Evangelical Church movement along with many other SS officers, led by Reich Bishop, Ludwig Mueller.

6. Odilo Globocnik – SS officer…unable to find any religion listed

7. Oskar Dirlewanger, SS-Oberführer ... Religion: Catholic

 8. Friedrich Jeckeln – SS-Obergruppenfuehrer “the Butcher of Riga” left the Roman Catholic church to join the German Evangelical Church movement

 9. Ernst Kaltenbrunner – Obergruppenführer und General der Polizei und Waffen-SS Roman Catholic

 8 of 9 listed here were Catholics and several of them left the Catholic Church to join the German Evangelical Church, an attempt to united Protestants and Catholics in an official German church. *This German Christians’ Faith Movement, organized in 1932, was nationalistic and so anti-Semitic that extremists wished to repudiate the Old Testament and the Pauline Letters because of their Jewish authorship .In July 1933 the state territorial churches merged to form the German Evangelical Church, headed by Reichsbishop, Ludwig Muller. After World War II the German Christian Church party was banned.* ( this excerpt from Encyclopedia Britanica)


History revisionism to cloak things no matter how repugnant they may be, no matter how it may disturb you, does not enable one to learn the reality as it was to help guard against the same methods of appeal to human nature and faith to be used again.  With the advances in technology in the past 80 years and the rapidity that propagandizing travels around the world, even more effectiveness to commit horrific evils is possible today.


 Hitler was not the sole evil German or Austrian.  So often an excuse is that Germans simply feared Hitler.  One man's ideology was not at work in the atrocities of Nazi Germany.   In fact, many do not even consider him to have been the most evil. Heinrich Himmler, the architect of "the Final Solution”, the Holocaust, is considered by some to have been even more despicably evil. 

 His top aides and Nazi officers were all equally evil.  

 And Adolf Hitler had millions of citizens of Germany who adored him and put him in power by electing him in his very popular rule.


Many Christians see the insistence of people to say Hitler was a Christian and that the Nazi party promoted Christianity in its platform is nothing more than a way to attack Christianity. 

People who are convinced of that in emotive reaction must realize that it is not attacking Christians or Christianity to be honest as to what TOOLS were used to entice the regular "normal" German citizen to either aid or turn a blind eye to some of the worst atrocities in human history in the then most literate and in what was considered the most "civilized" country in the world. 

The scariest thing about Nazi Germany and the Holocaust is that it began among a people then considered the most civilized, the most well educated, and who had a high church attendance in both Protestant and Catholic churches.  They were not red eyed monsters, but people who looked and behaved in every day life overall like your neighbor and mine.  

That’s also how scary it was for the Jews who most often found themselves being turned in by neighbors they’d formerly believed they held friendly relations;  their children playing together, or even formerly socializing together with them before the discriminatory laws against Jews began.  The most assimilated Jews were actually the most shocked and vulnerable.  They’d believed that their trying to blend in would immunize them from the bigotry they believed was held for the stereotype of the religious shtetl peasant Jew.


Those who forget, reject or do not learn from the actual past CAN repeat it in even more insidious ways.

  Christianity was one of the most successful tools of Nazi propagandizing.

Adolf Hitler was a professing Christian until the day he died and his thousands of recorded speeches still attest to it. To join the Nazi party, one had to vow allegiance to God and to Hitler.  The  Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles emblazoned with Gott mit unz (God is with us) The Nazi party platform has as an official clause the promotion of positive Christianity. The Nazis made a concordant with the Vatican, and they mandated all public schools in Germany begin each day with Christian prayer, Hitler was a great fan of the Passion Play, and some of his more famous quotes of his allegiance to Christian belief were made there.

It is complete willful ignorance to claim he was an atheist or that the Nazi ideology was rooted in the same.  While Hitler was obviously a horrible example of a professing Christian, that is clearly what he was. To know those facts are important lessons against future abuses, so why try to hide his abuse of Christianity to gain such massive popular appeal?

Any ideology can be abused to incite horrible things under a guise of good. The Nazis abused Christian dogma to do so.

"The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them." (Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on March 23, 1933)



 The very next month, here is something he said about those negotiations with the Vatican:

 "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people." Adolf Hitler, speech given during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, 26 April 1933


He made Christian school prayer mandatory for the 1930's German schoolchildren who grew up to be his SS. He did this in all occupied nations as well, Yugoslavia and Poland EMBRACED this Christian prayer in their schools and saw it as superior to the godless Communist rulers.

Hitler won his popular election based largely upon his campaign slogans and posters pitting the Nazi party with its promotion of "Positive Christianity"(point number 24 of the Nazi Party Platform) vs, the "Godless Communism". The Communists were his then greatest political threat. He portrayed Communism as a Judaizing influence, in Nazi posters, Jews = Bolsheviks. That was a particularly cruel irony because the Bolshevik persecution of the Jews and pogroms supported by them had been murdering hundreds of thousands of Jews  and caused the largest wave of immigration of Jews to the United States and the second Aliyah to Israel. 

Practicing Jews in communist countries were being persecuted and now the Christians of Germany were saying that Communism was a Jewish plot for world domination. That what the Nazis were projecting their goal of  world domination was soon realized.  

Adolf Hitler was certainly a rotten example of a moral Christian, but that wasn't the question. It doesn't serve anyone well to try to revise history. When people note what religion Hitler professed in hundreds of speeches and what religion the Nazi party promoted they are not out to demonize the religion of Christianity or attack their right to their faith,  but to show the dangers that can happen when any religion is abused to propagandize evil acts under the guise of godliness. An excellent book from a NON JEWISH perspective of just how easily Hitler and the Nazis gained the support of the average German, a people who believed themselves sincerely to be good hearted people, and among them formed a resistance from those did not realize the enormity of the atrocities they unwittingly aided until it was too late, is “The Resistance of the White Rose” by Inge Scholl. I first read this as a Scholastic Book in the early 70’s. She wrote a chilling tale from the perspective of one of many German and Austrian youth who were at first enticed by this movement until they realized the enormity of evil that gripped the nation as a result.


"Germany has been given a mission from God. The leader and prophet is Adolf Hitler.” (SiegfriedLeffer. ‘Christus im Drittem Reich der Deutschen’, p. 13-18)

In a speech to Polish Catholics, Hitler declared: “I, as a German Catholic, ask only what is permitted to Polish Catholics. To be antisemitic is not to be un-Catholic. The Church used every weapon against the Jews, even the Inquisition. Christ himself was a pioneer in the fight against Judaism.” (ibid, p. 146)



 “By destroying the Jews, I am fighting Christ’s battles” is a quote from Hitler in Mein Kampf.

In a document signed by many Christian theologians it was stated, “We as believing Christians thank God our Father that he has given to our people in its time of need the Fuhrer as a pious and faithful sovereign, and that he wants to prepare for us in the National Socialist system of government, good rule, a government with discipline and honor. Accordingly, we know that we are responsible before God to assist the work of the Fuhrer in our calling and in our station in life.” (‘Ansbacher Ratschlag’, p. 145)

Denial that the Nazis used Christianity and Christian antisemitism to gain support and power shows that people did not learn the lessons of history *how* such large scale atrocities happened with so many regular people supporting it. No one who correctly answers that Hitler was a practicing Catholic is claiming that because Hitler was a professing Christian until he died that all Christians are Nazis.

But it remains important that we do not hide, cloak or diminish the role that Christianity played in the promotion of the Holocaust.  It serves no one but those who would try to repeat such methods to HIDE them.  


"This is probably the first time and this is the first country in which people are being taught to realize that, of all the tasks which we have to face, the noblest and most sacred for mankind is that each racial species must preserve the purity of the blood which God has given it. " Adolf Hitler's Speech before the Reichstag, January 30, 1937



"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” --1941, Adolf Hitler to General Gerhart Engel

The Nazis and Hitler may have been bad examples of Christians but the fact remains they justified what they did using Christianity. With all the evidence of Hitler’s many speeches, his book Mein Kampf, films and photos of him referring to his belief in Christianity when he ruled Nazi Germany, and so many clergy of both Protestants and Catholics supporting him how can people believe that he did not promote Christianity if they read his book of heard his speeches? The Nazis used Christianity in the bid to gain power over Communists in Germany. He may have abused it, but we see that with Westboro church now and people don't deny they are Christians abusing Christianity.  There are good Christians who hate Westboro church and there were good Christians who fought Nazis, but Why deny what Hitler and so many Christians in Europe did?


Any religion can be abused to gain power if the masses let it



Learn the methods of abuse of the past.  Technology may change very rapidly, but human nature takes a great deal longer. 
His audience for the following were his fellow Christians of both Protestant and Catholic persuasion.

 
 
"We are indeed perhaps better able than other generations to realize the full meaning of those pious words "What a change by the grace of God".

Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:

1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views (Einstellung), nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted.... The Churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the State... Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favoured in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, &c., it enjoys immunity from taxation.

It is therefore, to put mildly-- effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich.... I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?

3. The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service. It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions. In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion.... There are ten thousands and ten thousands of priests of all the Christian Confessions who perform their ecclesiastical duties just as well as or probably better than the political agitators without ever coming into conflict with the laws of the State.... This State has only once intervened in the internal regulation of the Churches, that is when I myself in 1933 endeavoured to unite the weak and divided Protestant Churches of the different States into one great and powerful Evangelical Church of the Reich. That attempt failed through the opposition of the bishops of some States; it was therefore abandoned. For it is in the last resort not our task to defend or even to strengthen the Evangelical Church through violence against its own representatives.... But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as servant of God we shall protect, the priest as political enemy of the German State we shall destroy. "

-Adolf Hitler, a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939

[That last sentence sums up Hitler's stand on the priesthood. Rather than standing for atheism, as today's Christians would like, Hitler attacked the priesthood only if they stood in Hitler's political path.]


As the Evidence has shown, the Christians and clergy who were imprisoned were done so as political enemies and not because they were Christian.



Hermann Goring   is the source of the following quotes made at the Nuremberg trials:
 "The Fuëhrer wanted to achieve the unification of the Protestant Evangelical Churches by appointing a Reich Bishop, so that there would be a high Protestant church dignitary as well as a high Catholic church dignitary."
- (Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945, Vol.9)

"With the Catholic Church the Fuëhrer ordered a concordat to be concluded by Herr Von Papen. Shortly before that agreement was concluded by Herr Von Papen I visited the Pope myself. I had numerous connections with the higher Catholic clergy because of my Catholic mother, and thus – I am myself a Protestant – I had a view of both camps."
- (Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945, Vol.9)




Those who lie to say that Nazis were *not* professing Christians  MOST disrespect the sacrifices of the minority of Christians in their midst who often gave their lives in heroic ways.  Anyone who wanted to join the Nazi party had to make allegiance to their Christian God and to Adolf Hitler and had to reaffirm both to become a military officer or SS member.  Here is a quote from a web page that I found:
"Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, the officer who came closer than anyone to removing Hitler with a suitcase bomb was a devout Roman Catholic. God bless him, that was a truly heroic way of giving his life for his country"


There it also tells of "Gordon Zahn was a Catholic social scientist who went to Germany
 in the 1970's in search of evidence of heroism on the part of Roman Catholics. 
 What he found and eventually wrote about was quite the opposite of what he had hoped to find.
 Among other findings was the fact that there were only seven known cases of "conscientious
objectors" among Catholics during the entire Third Reich. Thanks to Zahn's writing about
one of these, one of these was beatified in 2007"
Please read more at the link above the quote
Some of the quotes came from these links:
I'm still searching my past writings for other references and will return with more



Sunday, February 2, 2014

Addressing Jew hate again

EDIT ( Before you read on, it has just been brought to my attention by other users of that forum who had also reported the abuser, including the gentleman who had alerted me to the fact I was under attack with libel at the q.   that the entire question disappeared. I did not see any violation in the question.  Odd, that. Hopefully, the actual abuser was censured with the violation. I don't know anyone who reported the question, but I know several users reported the person whose hateful misinformation I address below.)
==============================================================
One of the quickest ways to find Jew haters is to go to an online forum where questions are asked about Jews and Judaism.  On forums not moderated properly and where their own Terms of Service that prohibit hate speech are not followed despite proper reporting of abuses by many users, it is easy to see that Jew haters use such questions as opportunities to disseminate hate speech and try to infect others with their own inner turmoil.

A worn out question asking Jews what we think of Jesus started all this.  Jews answered all pretty much the same to the obvious, that Jesus isn't any part of our religion and other than that there is no official stance on the objects of worship of other religions except to note that God forbids Jews to worship them.  Jews are commanded to worship our incorporeal Creator with whom we have an eternal covenant and we are obligated to honor God in living the purpose of our covenant.  The New Testament replacement theology is meaningless to believing Jews, just as all other religions are meaningless to our faith and our path in life. Individuals opinions on whether or not Jesus as depicted in the New Testament are not doctrine and Jews answering questions about what Jews believe really shouldn't be attacked on a forum that supposedly has rules prohibiting hate speech, yet what we see there is that most often the people who display greatest contempt for Torah and Jews often pose as Jews to do so to claim they're just a schism of Judaism and "other" Jews hate them for their beliefs. That is as egregious a lie as their lies about Judaism and Torah.

The following is in response to someone who professes to be a Jew, yet has spent years on an online forum posting disruptive misinformation about Jews every day.

 What will appear below is an edit to an answer I've given that addresses yet another personal attack, attack upon all of Judaism, Torah and all practicing and believing Jews.  He believes Jesus is a god incarnate and he was not born to a Jewish mother and has professed that he was a prophet of Jesus, who told him to say the things he says. Therefore, it is obvious his claim of being a Jew is false and while I believe he is delusional and in need of mental help with the voices in his head that tell him to make up such absurd and bizarre lies about what I and others believe and say in the face of our words that contradict his fallacies, IF it were true that Jesus told him to say those things, that in itself would be all the objective evidence anyone would need to know not to worship him. However, I do not believe that Jesus exists as the New Testament depicts. I know that God, nor any agent of God would entice someone to lie about others, and therefore his display provides objective evidence against him despite his claims.

Now..to what I had wanted to post but there wasn't room permitted:




edit: Despite ( screen name withheld) desperate attempts his displays have provided objective evidence to show why Jesus worship is irrelevant to believing Jews.  He used to profess to being a prophet of his god, Jesus, now he claims God raised a Jewish messiah from the dead but since Jesus was never a messiah his claim is nonsensical to Judaism. I do not believe that happened, either since if that happened, why did no one contemporary to the events write about it? Of course he's talking about Jesus, so he and the millions of Christians who believe Jesus to have been resurrected are still faced with the dilemma of knowing he did nothing God promised of the Davidic messiah Their doctrine had to redefine the whole concept. I trust what God told us what the Davidic messiah whose humble rule ushers in what we know as the "messianic age" will do and Jesus did none of it.  If you're focused on God in the Jewish scriptures you wouldn't worship Jesus or rely on a man as a sacrifice for sin. Tell the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah and Nehemiah that there is a dichotomy regarding God and community in Torah. Yet the personal attack lying about me and all believing Jews is the most convincing objective evidence of his deep obsessive contempt for everything honest and Torah itself. His deepest issue certainly appears to be with God whose words in Torah he openly rejects here before everyone by open displays to of projecting upon Jews that which he rejects.. He project to believing Jews who refuse to reject what God promised us about the Davidic messiah with an insane lie that we are without messianic belief. "Non Messianic Jew" could only possibly and honestly apply to the few Jews who reject God's promise of the Davidic messiah and to those fewer still who reject it to worship Jesus as a god. Of course  ( screen name omitted) is not a non messianic Jew since he meets no criteria to be a Jew. He is not a messianic Jew in any honest sense because he rejects Judaism’s messianic belief from the Hebrew Bible and instead is a Gentile believer in the Christian Old and New Testament’s redefinitions.  When Christians who hold contempt for Jews try to deflect the insulting nonsensical  label of “non messianic” to say it means Jews who do not believe in Jesus they are displaying entitlement belief they can redefine Judaism and Jewish law and negate God’s prophecies in the Hebrew Bible despite what God commanded. 

 Lying about what I believe with nonsense that  has never appeared even remotely in anything I've ever professed or written reveals contempt for  God who commands do not bear false witness, not to mention disrespect to a fellow human.
"Without a communicated covenant from God, you have no Jew" the person  displays openly there that he completely rejects that all Israel was present to witness God's presence at Sinai, that's fine, but to lie that all the world's Jews reject it is once again, projection on his part.  Judaism exists despite the claims of 2000 years of Christian dogma because God calls our covenant eternal and the eternal Torah has kept us intact. Lying about Jews in Yahoo does not make Judaism or the millions of believing and practicing Jews disappear, they only reveal the liar to have contempt for the things they lie about . He proves he cannot speak for the Jewish people when he makes charges that we believe things insulting to Judaism and our covenant's purpose.  Despite having had it explained in detail to him countless times over the years, he still repeats  that Jews do not know what our purpose is, and that appears to be because he reject God's purpose for Israel as the Torah reveals it, revealing his issue is really with God’s words in the
Torah and to all Israel, much more than his projections upon believing Jews.  I know he will continue to carry on as usual, he’s  doing a bang up job to show the world how much the covenant's purpose is still so needed in the world


Once again, I know that by giving someone who shows such extreme and obsessive hate to Jews such attention I have likely inspired him to feel justified to escalate his behavior even more.  This is simply a risk I will take to show what Jews are facing with increasingly disturbing "acceptance" by their fellow Christians. Why are so few other Christians not speaking out to this insanity? 

I am always happy when I see Christians who DO disown this type of behavior as not inspired by their belief in Jesus. 
I know that my Christian friends think I'm misguided not to believe as they do, but thank God, they've softened their view from believing that Jews and others who don't ...deserve eternal torture and any and all attacks they receive are deserved because of it..to believing more Jewishly actually..that there is a purpose for every people.  God has a purpose of Jews and the New Testament isn't it.   The world will be a nicer place if they'd simply accept that rather than waste their lives in devising nefarious ways to eliminate Judaism instead.  Think of all the wonderful things that could be accomplished in the world if the Hebrew Christians and mainstream churches and Christians that have supported them with donations could do ..if they took the more than 100 million dollars that was raised last year ALONE  from the top 10 various "Messianic Jewish" movements that fraudulently claim to be Jews and want to convert Jews to worship Jesus so he will return....and placed that money in charities.

If you don't believe the money was that much ( I think I've UNDER estimated it) go look like I did for the financial statements for their organizations. The Jews for Jesus group, one that they claim is one of the SMALLEST, raised more than 25 million last year according to their financial officer.


also see the writing here about the insulting antisemitic tag "Non-Messianic" to refer to believing Jews and what it logically implies about those who insist upon referring to the Jewish people who refuse to abandon Judaism's messianic belief for that of Christian dogma.

http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2012/05/who-first-started-insulting-jews-with.html


EDIT
At the question I was adding this to address a Jew haters disruption, as often happens, seemed to draw other offal. 

the following addresses a different person, also notorious for obsessively appearing under questions asking Jews what Jews believe and think , who is not only not Jewish to give Jewish opinion, but repeatedly gives willful misinformation and insulting ad hominem to deflect from honest answers about Judaism. 

Below I give a reply to the nonsensical deflection asking me if I believe if Torah "saves" me and preaching Christian dogma about their concept of salvation that is antithetical to Torah and the purpose of the covenant of Israel that is a path of living as an example to the nations in striving to justice, mercy, righteousness and compassion, restoring the world to a state of holiness.  The covenant is a path that honors God's gift of life and the lives to follow our own.  The dogma of the NT rejects the justice and personal and collective accountability of God's creation to God and one another for appeasement of an incarnate deity whose human sacrifice placates and "atones" for all sins, past, present and future.  However, that is egregiously anti Torah since God calls human sacrifice an abomination in Torah and told Moses no man takes on the sin of another.

The Christian concept of salvation is absent in the Torah. There is no burden of sin that I was born with that needs an abominable human sacrifice to appease any foreign incarnate deity who was claimed to have placed it there in the first place. Your arrogant ignorance to ask me to understand what you reject is almost palapable in your contempt for the words of Jeremiah and Isaiah who upheld the covenant and did not entice people to reject it to worship a man as a god incarnate. There is nothing positive the NT has to offer that I could possibly obtain by turning my back upon my Creator, the words of the prophets and the covenant God established with Abraham. You are free to worship Jesus.  I'm free to worship the Creator he was depicted as crying out to while hanging on the cross.  Thousands of Jews who were crucified did likewise. Jews don't worship any of them.

Wednesday, January 1, 2014

Beginning the New Year Standing Against Antisemitic Propagandizing Posed as Judaism


Beginning the New Year Standing Against Antisemitic Propagandizing Posed as Judaism

This is the rest of an answer that wouldn’t fit on Yahoo Answers and sadly was required to expose deceptive projection made to demonize Jews and deflect from honest answers with ad hominem.

The person I’ll call “JM” has given an ad hominem response that projects what they do to Judaism

I’ll address what I quote from him after each. “You're going to get two types of answers here. One type of answer is from the Jews. The other is from Messianic Believers.” < This is not quite logical.  Believing Jews believe in God’s messianic promise, at least he honestly distinguished those who follow the Christian Bible and call themselves Jews *from* the Jews.

Yes, let us do exactly what James asks.

“Let's examine the type of answers that the Jews here are giving.”< Please do, please examine in detail and compare and contrast what is said.  “They use words such as "lies and deceit" "financial bait and switch scam" "false" "apostates" "distorted" "deceptive" "dishonest" and "pretending to be Jews and playing Jewish dress up". Now these words can be facts or they could just be opinions.”  

  Let the reader decide if Jews have provided the evidence with Torah and those who have misappropriated Jewish identity own words here provide the evidence to what Jews say.

It is an honest obligation to speak out against those who bear false witness against Jews.  Remaining silent to the unethical behavior of those who wish to hijack Jewish identity and impose upon Judaism beliefs that God’s commandments in the eternal covenant call blasphemy and separate a Jewish soul from God  would be tacit approval if we did not speak out. Yet James calls standing up for honesty “nothing else than insult and attack”

That’s projection. 

“The real question you need to be asking is whether you can trust any group that does nothing else than insult and attack the other group?”   “attack the other group”. Do you notice that the New Testament dogma and their definition of Judaism is dependent upon misrepresenting and insulting Jews and Jewish belief while he denies they do so in the very presence of the insult? Note that they even insist upon using a term coined to insult Jews as lacking messianic belief to apply to us despite dozens of times appearing across Yahoo answers of Jews showing it is insulting.

“ If it is wrong to attack and insult, then can you trust them with any other information, site, webpage, or document they source?”

I agree with that sentence as it stands alone, however it should be clear by now that Jews exposing deceptive tactics to create animosity toward Jews and deflect from their fraudulent behavior of misappropriating Jewish identity by inciting hate to Judaism and to justify imposing forbidden beliefs and practices upon everything holy to Jews is not “attack and insult” but defending against insidiously harmful deception.


I think that claim is interesting for him to have made when his answer praises those who attack Judaism and at least one individual Jew under this very question? Not only was a respected Orthodox Rabbinical student libeled, but another used a term coined to insult Jews with the fallacious claim that we have no trust in God’s promise of the messiah and that we’ve abandoned a principle of our religion that we still maintain in steadfast refusal to impose idolatry upon it. Then another who claims to be an author insult Torah and Jews and Judaism and lie about the Tanakh and what it is Jews believe and do.     His answer is ad hominem projection attempting to discredit Jews who are honest about Judaism and who give Torah precept to define Jewish identity.  The scriptures of no other religion have authority to negate what God obligates Israel to be. God’s commandments in Torah are  the sole determinant of defining who and what is or isn’t Judaism

Note that JM makes no claims about it being Judaism himself. But he supports those answers that do call the New Testament dogma, Judaism. While he makes no reference to the phrase “Messianic Judaism” himself, he calls them “Messianic Believers” while failing to note that their messianic belief is absent from and antithetical to the messianic belief of Judaism. The whole issue is that they misappropriate Jewish identity and fraudulently call themselves Jews and their clergy Rabbis.

Belief does not define Jewish identity, but it can separate a Jewish soul from God and his purpose as a Jew and remove him from the covenant if he accepts a foreign god and idolatry. Refusal to accept idolatry is a part of the thousands of years old reasons why Jews have remained an eternal covenant nation. Jews may worship only the incorporeal Creator that all experienced directly at Sinai.  

While behavior is far more important than faith in Judaism, the ethical precepts of Torah obligate us to speak out against bearing false witness and doing so to impose idolatry upon the Jewish people.

If you wish to compare and contrast Judaism to the Hebrew Christian claims of being the real Jews, you cannot use the insulting fallacy to libel Jews as “non Messianic”.  When they are called upon how insulting that lie is, they try to deflect by saying that only means that they worship Jesus and Jews don’t. The claim is that “messianic Jews” believe Jesus and non messianic Jews don’t.  No, all of Judaism remains messianic and they do not have authority or capacity to negate God’s word on the matter of the principle of the covenant of Israel.  Jews who believe in Jewish messianic belief don’t follow false or failed messiahs and no believing Jew could worship a man.

 

Besides, that isn’t what that term means to them, they tell us that we don’t have a messiah if it isn’t Jesus. They insist we are without messianic belief ..because we refuse to abandon the messianic belief of Judaism and Torah. NON means without, messianic refers to belief in God’s promise of the Davidic messiah.  Judaism retains the original and *unaltered* prophecy from God in the Hebrew Bible. No substitute permissible, just as the New Testament redefinition of the nature of God is not permissible within the covenant. To permit the nature of God to be altered and believe that God lied, would negate the covenant itself! The nature of humanity and our relationship with God is also not up for redefinition or negation.

Here is another blog entry that addresses the reality of that insulting term. http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2012/05/who-first-started-insulting-jews-with.html

It is the Christian Bible that is NON Torah compliant. If they insist upon deflecting the issue of their hijacking Jewish identity by misrepresenting Judaism and Jewish belief, what else could you possibly believe that they say?

Jews are not telling anyone here anything false about their beliefs. We have gotten their beliefs directly from what they claim they believe right here.  We know that they are not a part of the Jewish people, not a part of the eternal covenant of Israel precisely because of the beliefs they express here before all.

 

The beliefs they express in their Statements of Fatih at any of the “Messianic Judaism” websites are the best evidence that they are antithetical to Torah despite their claims they “fulfill” Torah. They even had to redefine “fulfill’ to mean to put aside rather than to adhere to.

When the New Testament adherents calling themselves Jews address “non Messianic Jews” if they were to actually refer to Jews without messianic belief, that term could only honestly refer to secular Jews or to apostates such as the small number of their adherents who were actually born into membership in the Jewish people according to Jewish law who came from secular homes without Jewish education, or  atheists who don’t believe in God. To be without messianic belief is clearly not to be an adherent of Judaism.

If they don’t compare their beliefs to Judaism but to what Jews who don’t adhere to Judaism believe, why is that?  What is it they are trying to hide with such deceptive measures.

If you want to contrast the two religions, you need to honestly address the religion. Insisting you have entitlement to REMOVE from Judaism a principle of belief that it’s adherents have remained steadfast to defend against corruption for thousands of years is dishonest. It isn’t attacking anyone to point out that obvious and disturbing fact.   It is a principle of Judaism that we trust God’s promise of the messianic age and in fact Jews living the covenant helps the world toward such a state of universal justice, peace, brotherhood and knowledge and worship of the incorporeal God of Israel.  That there are people posing as Jews who are behaving in the ways we see demonstrated here under this very question is in fact, objective evidence that we are not in a post messianic age.  That people still worship Jesus and or any other entities, and that there are wars that rage and bigotries taught and there is attack upon Jews for upholding Torah without corruption is objective physical evidence we aren’t in a post messianic age. Their “second coming” was an attempt to circumvent those facts. 

Non Jews who have no legal (Torah) tie to the Jewish people have no authority or capacity to declare the Jewish messianic belief in what God promised Israel in the Torah to be non existent. If they say otherwise, they are lying.  There is that accusation JM wants you to believe is so evil to make, yet it really jumped out at me while reading his answer he has NO problem with the lies made about Jews and Judaism.   By praising those who lie that Judaism is absent of a belief Jews have held steadfast to for thousands of years and refuse to corrupt, he joins the lie. If he would lie that Jews and Judaism are without messianic belief, and the self-professed prophet of his god, Jesus would lie that Jews say that God cannot speak to anyone as he often claims, what could you believe about anything else either of them say? Now remember, I am using JM’s own admonitions and conditions regarding how we judge the answers.

And then you have JM telling us that the Jews are lying about what they believe. He lumps himself in with those who call themselves Jews there, yet he will deny that he is a Jew. So, what religion is he claiming that Jews lie about exactly? Is this more weasel wording?  I see nothing that the Jews have said here that misrepresents what the New Testament adherents continually tell us they believe or say. We are showing that what they say they believe is not compatible with Torah and ask people to read the mitzvot in Torah in context and judge for themselves.  I trust the reader can use their God given capacity to judge for themselves.

We know what they believe because they keep telling us what they believe and this is precisely how we know that it is not compatible with the eternal covenant of Judaism.  To worship a man as a god and simultaneously present themselves as having read and understood Torah shows us in this evidence that they believe that God lied to all Israel when God told them that God does not become a man.  If they believe the New Testament dogma that Jesus human sacrifice can atone for sin means that they reject outright what God told  Moses at Sinai in refusing Moses offer to take on the sins the Israelites who strayed. They obviously do not believe God telling Moses that no man may take on the sin of another, and Ezekiel the prophet, and other narratives throughout Torah and Tanakh declaring the same thing. They believe that humans are born in an evil state and their mangod must be appeased with a human sacrifice to “pay the price” and reconcile their evil nature, despite the fact that in Genesis God reveals that humans are born without sin and with propensities for good and evil and God gave humanity the ability to overcome our evil nature.  This is taught to all humanity, not just Jews, and taught the very next sentence after the very first time the word sin is mentioned in the Bible.

I’ve only scratched the surface of the deceptive nature of their efforts to hijack Jewish identity and replace and negate Judaism.  The only honest answers there are those who tell you that there is absolutely no movement of Judaism that is compatible with the Christian Bible and its replacement theology. They are not adherent to Judaism or the covenant of Israel. 

And I will also share there the links to their own Statements of Faith that they almost always hide with thumbs down so that others will not compare and contrast exactly what they profess to believe with Torah and with the beliefs of Judaism.

 

When they profess to celebrate Jewish holidays and festivals, they fail to say that how they celebrate them is to so egregiously pervert them that it is a horrific offense to believing and practicing Jews.

It is no different than the Greeks setting up idols in the Temple or Romans doing the same , than to see Christians  declare that worship of a man as a god and human sacrifice are Judaism.  NO different at all.  It is imposing idolatry upon Judaism and believing and practicing Jews would rather die than remain silent in the face of attempts to do away with the Torah. In fact, we are required to die rather than to become idolatrous. A Jew can violate almost every commandment in order to save a life, except commit idolatry, murder or incest and sexual abuse. While there are Jews thoughout the centuries who were sometimes forced to pose as Christian to save their lives, other Jews looked down upon them for so doing. I can understand both sides. 


Now as to his accusation of Jews lying about what they believe, in fact, what they hate most and have attacked me personally the most for doing over the years ( and a search of Answers can reveal this very openly )is when I post links to their own websites and particularly the websites of the different Hebrew Christian groups calling themselves Messianic Jews in fraudulence. Often there is histrionic response from them when ask people to compare and contrast on their own and use their own God given capacity of discernment to see just how their own formal statements fit Torah’s precepts and the Statements of faith of every movement of Judaism.  When I’ve listed the links that I’ve obtained from those who profess themselves to be Messianic Jews and post them, I’m often the target of vicious libels or malicious reporting and my answer is almost always hidden due to low rating by them because they do not want people to do that.  They know from past experiences it often creates a crisis in faith for those who had believed their lies that it is possible to be following Torah and Judaism and worship Jesus as a god and rely on his sacrifice as atonement.

That is indeed a lie to say that one can violate the very core of the covenant of Israel in blasphemous behavior and simultaneously be Torah observant.  To point out a blatant lie is not unjust, it is not viciousness, it is standing up for what God obligates us to do when we are commanded Do not bear false witness.

It is no less an attack on Christianity to declare it is not Judaism than it would be for someone to say that the Hindu religion is not Christianity.

“The other type of answer is provided by Messianic believers such as Devoted 1, Jesus made me kosher, Abiyah Messianic Torah, and DSM. Have you noticed how they are telling your what Messianic Jews believe and they are not attacking Jews or Judaism in the process?” < That is a lie right there. One of them lies about another respected Jewish user’s answers and each of the others makes insulting claims about Judaism and one uses a term coined to negate a principle of Judaism in a very insulting manner. To falsely claim Jews are without messianic belief is no less insulting than if you said non God believing Jews because that’s actually what they are implying when they lie to label Jews non messianic. They're lying that we don't believe our God's promise to us and a principle of our own religion. Judaism is not without our faith in what God promised. It is because we REFUSE to negate the eternal covenant and accept it's replacement with dogma that is directly forbidden and condemned by God in the Torah for Israel, they are attacking Jews and Judaism and projecting that it is attack when Jews speak out against their assaults to our identity and our communities.
The most repeated and common method is to attack Judaism with offensive lies and then when Jews point this out, we're accused of attacking Christianity and hating them for their belief in Jesus to deflect their misrepresentations about the laws in the Holy Scriptures of the Hebrew Bible, and their lies about what Jews do and believe. 


“The question is: Can you trust a Messianic Believer to tell you what they themselves believe?” <  Why is that the question? Did any Jew say you could not trust them to say what they believe?  If you trust them to tell you what they themselves believe why is it that they hate it so much when I share the links they’ve given in Yahoo answers to COMPARE and contrast their own formal and official statements of faith to what it is that Torah declares?They want you to read their links..but not while reading Torah and Tanakh in context and comparing and contrasting them on your own. They don’t want you to read their statements of faith and contrast them to the commandments of Torah that we point out contradict them.

I've never seen any post by a Jew that misrepresents what the New Testament adherent who professes to be a Jew declares themselves to believe.  When I've seen that claim made before by some of the users at that very question, they've never been able to come up with an example.

Note that the Christian missionary misinforming that he’s kosher claims that he is not following Rabbnic Judaism but right before that  he anachronistically refers to  Jesus as Rabbi because their New Testament calls Jesus a Rabbi.

Why would they simultaneously profess to reject Rabbinical teaching but yet their attempts to prove their Jewishness is most dependent upon adopting rituals and customs created after 90CE by Rabbis (the kippot, and some of the Pesach rituals for instance)   Christian theologians who know the history and archaeology know this reveals that the particular NT text referring to either Jesus or Paul as rabbis had to have been written after 90 CE, after the position Rabbi was created.

Rabbis didn’t exist until after 90 CE and if he can come up with something written before the destruction of the Temple referring to Rabbis, he will become world famous

They claim not to follow Rabbinic Judaism because they want to separate themselves from Judaism yet their practices and their own websites reveal they borrow from things the Rabbis created to keep and teach Torah in the absence of the Temple. They corrupt by imposing idolatry upon customs and practices that were created by the Rabbis they claim to disdain. Then they have the chutzpah to call their Christian clergy RABBIS.  Calling a New Testament adherent Rabbi is fraudulent.  That’s why Jews use the term fraudulent to   label their practices. A Rabbi is one learned and trained in Jewish law and who has received semicha. Someone who adheres to the new Testament could no more become a Rabbi than someone who is eating a T bone could be called adhering to a vegan diet.

Don’t take my word for anything I’ve said here. I hope you DO investigate. Please. I am depending on it.

That’s the only way you’ll discover what is real and that’s even what God obligates Jews to do in the Torah.

If you don’t trust my links..this means you don’t trust theirs also because some of the links I posted in past answers they hated so much were those I obtained from those who call themselves "Messianic Jews".

I have only ever met ONE who was an apostate Jew, all others were people who had various NON Torah /NON Jewish religion /law notions of Jewish identity.

A dream doesn't do it, being born to a Jewish father and being Baptised as a teen and worshipping Jesus doesn't make one an apostate, it makes one a Gentile hijacking Jewish identity. The British Israelite redefinition of Christians as the real Israel doesn't do it. Converting to "Messianic Judaism" and faith in the "Jewish Messiah Yeshua" doesn't do it. 

 Only God's word in Torah determines who is and what is of the covenant. That short list above includes just SOME of the self-professed ways that those who profess themselves to be the "real Jews" while calling all the world's adherents of Judaism, fake or "of the devil" ( that we don't even believe exists)


While I link to a past answer that gave the links I’d obtained,  I notice that every few months the MJAA website link to their Statements of Faith changes.  In each of the answers I’ve given, there is a slightly different link and currently it is this http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=rd_aboutus_statement_of_faith and not the link that I’d given at the past answer below.  It may change shortly after this has been posted, who knows! But you can always search. I haven’t reclicked on all the old links, but I do have a list of links and references that the Christian missionaries calling themselves Jews and the Jew haters hijacking Jewish identity use. If more of those links don't work, let me know and I'll go post some of the newer references they've given.http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=rd_messianicmovement_faq

Don't let them deflect that this is Jews misrepresenting what they believe OR that we "persecute them for their faith in Jesus". 
that's a retooling of the propaganda in Europe of the 1930's! That claim that Jews were persecuting Christians fueled many atrocities throughout the centuries.

This isn't about trying to convert them out of their Christian dogma, this is about them fraudulently claiming that their very different religion whose core doctrines directly contradict the core of Judaism *is* Judaism and that they have replaced the Jews with their New covenant of faith that is antithetical to the eternal covenant God has with the Jewish people.
That's a big difference.

I also recognize that there are those who sincerely believe they are ‘Jews” by adopting the Hebraisized versions of their Christian dogma and by imposing Jesus upon some Jewish outward rituals, but they have been misled and sadly, by people they believed in that they could trust. 

I do not believe all the people who call themselves “messianic Jews” are inherently bad people.  I have met a number who were simply misled and when they studied and investigated on their own, after their crisis of faith..some chose to be Christian, some chose to join the Jews and others were shaken into agnosticism or atheism. It’s always a shock when they discover what the Torah is really about.  It isn’t attacking anyone to point that out.

  http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090429100229AArdVD7  This answer is full of links I obtained from some of those who call themselves “messianic Jews” here under this question in Yahoo Answers. 

Now at this very blog there is a link that addresses most of the claims of the Christian missionary "Jesus Made" in his expression of how Jewish their practices are. You’ll see that repeatedly what he claims is Torah observant or practicing something Of Judaism is actually imposing idolatry upon it and insulting Jewish practice and belief so extreme that it is out right Jew hate in what they do.

Read A Side by Side analysis reveals much. http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2010/02/difference-between-messianic-judaism.html  In fact, if you’re here because you want to learn in depth about this question and came from the link at Yahoo here in 2014, then you may wish to click on and read all the articles I have under “Hebrew Christian” at this blog.

 I’d written the comparative analysis of those claims several years ago after growing tired of posting the same refutations over and over. It really is astonishing that they can continue to claim in the presence of people who know about Judaism that when they impose Jesus worship upon holy observances that honor Torah they are being Torah observant.  For someone to worship Jesus and claim it is JUDAISM is no different than if someone were to stand in a Baptist church and worship their “Lucifer” or “Thor” or any other religion’s deity and call it the real Baptist faith.

In such a scenario ( you may think unlikely) many Baptists would remain silent to seeing multi-million dollar evangelical campaigns to impose worship that their Bible forbids to them upon their beliefs and practices and insist the world accept it as the "real Baptist" faith and go around teaching and soliciting money in the name of Baptists while professing that any Baptist who says otherwise is persecuting them for their faith? 

Well, it wasn't that long ago that Jews around the world laughed at the early attempts by Christian evangelicals to present Jesus worship as Judaism.  The stereotypes they employed were absurd, who would believe them?  Well, they weren't effective in converting Jews, but there were an astonishing number of Christians that were enticed, and then many in their numbers began working harder in learning how to pose as Jews. 

This is a lot to read and I know I've likely lost many people already.  That's ok.  Those that I haven't lost yet may decide to share what they've learned.
I believe I made the point clear way back that they aren't a part of the Jewish people and their religion isn't Judaism.
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I realize that their movement has now grown so large and so powerful monetarily and has been around now since 1967 meaning that there is a whole generation who grew up being lied to by those they loved that they were Jews and that actual Jews “hated them” for their belief in Jesus.  Jews don’t hate anyone who prays to Jesus for praying to Jesus. Jews don’t hate anyone who prays to any foreign god that Jews do not believe exists..Jews don’t worship those things though and we MUST speak out against those who bear false witness to teach that such behavior is acceptable within Judaism. God directly forbids the Jews from worshipping anything on earth or in heaven other than God and not doing our part to stand against the false witness is promoting injustice, the antithesis of Torah.

Throughout Jewish history when Jews adopted beliefs of the foreign gods of the people who surrounded us or who had ruled in conquest, the Jews suffered at the very hands of the people whose false and foreign gods they'd adopted.  That's a lesson repeatedly detailed in the Tanakh and afterward in history.

And Judaism does not accept that God lied to all Israel in their direct encounter with the Divine and Judaism does not permit that the religion would accept teaching that God lied saying God does not become a man.


So…if they’d simply follow their worship of Jesus without trying to hijack Jewish identity in so doing and without trying to impose that idolatrous worship into Jewish homes and mislead Jewish children in bearing false witness..Jews would not be obligated to speak out against it. 

If someone took your family name and were behaving in ways that were unethical, violated the laws of your people, brought dishonor and libeled you, it's hard to imagine anyone treated that way respecting those who did it , much less remaining silent.  How much worse when it is done in the name of God and religion and a part of the misbehavior is using propagandizing to make the target of their libel out to be someone justly condemned by God.