Who First Started Insulting Jews With "Non Messianic" to call all believing in Judaism?

Does anyone know who first coined the antisemitic and inflammatory insult displaying entitlement to remove the messianic belief from Judaism by calling all who adhere to Judaism, adherents of some nonexistent entity called "Non Messianic Judaism"?

I’m curious if the person who coined this term would openly admit to being the author of such a display of arrogant entitlement to try to negate a thousands of years old principle of Judaism.

I have only seen this term used by members of a particular group who follow the scriptures of a DIFFERENT religion than Judaism (New Testament) but claim to be Jews ("Messianic Jews")despite having no connection to the Jewish people according to the laws of the Jewish people (Torah). Their messianic belief isn't that of Judaism or the Jewish Bible.
A pretty new attempt that's increasing in use is to justify calling Jesus their “Jewish” Messiah, then openly insult all believers of the religion of Judaism by referring to Judaism as “Non Messianic”. They use this term to apply to Jewish believers (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, and Renewal) in attempt to negate God’s prophetic vision of the Davidic Messiah found within the Tanakh for Jews. In discussions with Jews around the world, and as evidenced by many questions, answers and comments in response to this insult being applied to Jews in Yahoo Answers, no one I’ve encountered appears to have seen this insult before a little less than a decade ago, so I am curious who began it, and where it was first used.

The term itself reads very clearly as attempt to display entitlement to REMOVE from Judaism one of the very principles OF Judaism. “Non” means without. Messianic refers to a belief in the concept of a Messiah. Messiah is the English translation of the Hebrew word mosiach, meaning an anointed ruler. The prophetic vision of the Davidic messiah of the Jewish Bible is that an anointed ruler descended from the house of David will rule from Israel with humility, mercy and justice and usher in world peace, universal brotherhood and universal knowledge and understanding of God.

It is clearly wrong to call Judaism or any Jewish believer “Non Messianic”. A Jew who is atheist or secular could perhaps be labeled this if they do not believe the principles of the faith of Judaism. The Christian Bible's redefined concept of Messiah is "non Jewish" or Non Torah compliant. Jews don't claim Christians have no messianic belief because their concept is incompatible with that of the Torah and Judaism. It is a DIFFERENT messianic belief. There is no separate movement or branch or sect of Judaism that uses a name of Messianic Judaism because all of Judaism remains messianic in belief. There is as little need to name a separate movement of Judaism monotheistic Judaism as all of Judaism believes that God does not incarnate into human form as the Torah states.

Judaism remains messianic and retains the Jewish Bible’s concept of the Davidic messiah. For adherents of another religion's scriptures to display entitlement to both hijack the name of the Jewish covenant nation and purport to negate the messianic belief of Judaism is arogant and insulting.

PLEASE do not answer or contact me with attempts to try to justify the USE of this insult. Answers that attempt to *justify hateful insults* will be appropriately reported as hate speech.

I do not invite inflammatory speech. I am asking for a very specific bit of information while I’m explaining to any non Jews who stumble upon this who may not have read Jewish forums or q and a forums asking about Judaism what has been going on in the past few years in escalation of antisemitic attacks upon Jews and Jewish communities.

***I am asking for informational/educational purposes if anyone knows exactly who it was that first coined the inflammatory insult of “Non-Messianic” to refer to all of Judaism. ***

In order to counter hate one must be informed of the methods employed to spread the irrational bigotries. As in ages past, terms and concepts foreign to Judaism were created to incite hate to Jews and specifically used concepts that were attempts to REMOVE from Jews, the laws that define us as a covenant nation people and that attempt to remove specific beliefs from Judaism or claim we do and believe things we don’t to incite hate.

Removing laws of self-determination was done to render the Jews impotent as a people, as were the various dispersions and exiles of Jews in history. Claiming Jews believe and do things we don’t justified those persecutions.
The notion of Jews as a race rather than membership determined by Jewish law, and the notion that “chosen people” implied superiority are two that are still spread on a daily basis

Therefore, I am NOT asking for anyone to justify any of those notions used to negate Judaism and the Jewish people. There IS no rational, logical justification to display entitlement to claim authority to remove a principle of faith/belief with an insulting term. I want to know who coined it to try to understand the methods of spreading antisemitism and to educate against bigotry.

The same principle applies for ANY religion or any people. There is no justification to create terms of entitlement to negate the core doctrines or histories for others.

The 13 Principles of Judaism compiled in a list by Maimonides existed since the receiving of the Torah and still exists intact today for Judaism. See the following for explanation of them
http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm
Jews are increasingly being insulted with the deceptive term “Non-Messianic” to address us. It is clearly insulting and an ad hominem attack to address individuals who have clearly demonstrated belief in Judaism as being “Non Messianic Jews”! Daily there appear questions and answers and more commonly, harassment and personal attacks under closed questions that insult Jews with this term. There are many dozens of instances of Jews being TOLD we are Non Messianic when the individual clearly knows better, or of others answering questions about Judaism with doctrines from the New Testament (texts outside of and antithetical to Judaism) in lieu of Tanakh and Judaism. The NT adherent will claim that all “other” Jews are “non Messianic” to justify labeling themselves Jews in violation of Jewish law, call Jesus the messiah of Judaism (as Christians believe), and justify their missionary attempts to proselytize to and insult Jews and Judaism for explaining actual Judaism.

Despite having first asked people to refrain from insulting Jews with this term and explaining to those who may have first adopted it in ignorance of Judaism that Judaism NEVER Abandoned belief in God's prophecies of the messianic age as detailed in the Jewish Bible’s messianic prophecies and that the term is nonsensical at best to apply to any believing Jew in the world, the use of the term has escalated and in direct response to Jewish objections from Jews around the world. The application of this insult is now most often accompanied by other egregiously antisemitic insults. It is very clear to all Jews I’ve discussed this with from every movement and from Jews in a dozen countries, that its use is a purposeful attempt to inflame and insult Jews and Judaism and misinforms people that Judaism doesn’t have a messianic belief.

It’s like calling someone of another religion who worships a different god, as “godless”. (Oops, these SAME people have done THAT, too when Jews say that Jesus/Yeshua is not God)

I now wonder how soon it will be before they come up with even more insulting terms. Will they soon create a new moniker to refer to all of Judaism as godless because we don’t believe Yeshua/Jesus was god incarnate? Will they then likewise try to justify this new term to claim that because we also didn’t abandon Torah's concept of the nature of God to adopt their religion’s scriptures redefined concept of the nature of God, that we don’t have belief in God either? Judaism is both messianic and monotheistic. No matter the different movements’ disagreements of how to honor the eternal law, the core of the eternal covenant is common to all of Judaism. The “gospels” of the New Testament (even if translated into Hebrew) are not scriptures of Judaism.

Judaism worships the monotheistic Creator and believing Jews will never permit this to be altered within Judaism, and for this reason...those who insist on redefining and negating Judaism but feel entitled to take on the name and identity of the Jewish people also appear to feel entitled to now tell us because we have refused to abandon the prophecy of the Davidic messiah and messianic age found within Judaism’s own Holy Scriptures of the Tanakh in lieu of the REDEFINITION of the “New Testament” that we don’t have a messianic belief.

If that isn’t insulting, what is?

As I’ve detailed before in other writings, it clearly isn’t hate or bigotry to note the differences between the doctrines of different religions as all comparative religion courses require and as is necessary to learn about what people of the world believe from their own perspectives. So when the world’s Jews repeat for the umpteenth time as we have for centuries, that the Christian religion’s Old and New Testaments and their redefined nature of God and nature and job of the Davidic Messiah are outside of an antithetical to Torah and Judaism we aren’t displaying hate to their right to believe different things in their very different religion.

*The Jewish people still refuse to accept that any other religion has a right to *remove any of the the principles of the faith of Judaism from the Jewish people or from our Holy Scriptures*.

If you don’t choose to believe in the laws and ethical precepts of Judaism....don’t believe them. You don't have entitlement to negate them for adherents of Judaism.

Insulting Judaism to call it "non Messianic" creates an unsolvable dilemma for them when they use that term to insult Judaism while claiming Jewish identity. They use it in attempt to NEGATE one of the principles of the religion of Judaism with a term that means messianic belief is NON existent in Judaism, and then try to replace it with the REDEFINED and Torah violating concept from the New Testament calling *it* "Messianic Judaism" when their messiah belief isn't from Judaism or the Jewish Bible.

If Judaism didn't have a belief in God's prophetic vision of the Davidic Messiah in the *eternal* covenant then the creators of their "NEW" covenant replacement theology wouldn't have had it to morph from an anointed king who brings universal brotherhood, peace and worship of God into an incarnate sacrifice for sin. Unwittingly, by the evangelical Christians' creating the purposely inulting term "non Messianic" to negate the religion of Judaism that still retains the belief in what God promised Israel..despite themselves, they've exposed with that one insult term alone, that their New Testament isn't of the eternal covenant of Torah/Judaism at all!

To claim entitlement to negate for another people defining aspects of their doctrine that makes them a people reveals contempt for them, not vice versa. And if there is anything that can be objectively shown about Judaism in the existence of Jewish history is that while empires have come and gone, the refusal of the Jewish people to alter or abandon God’s Torah has kept us alive as a people and shall continue to do so.

Am Yisrael Chai.

Thoughts on Cultural and Religious Identity Theft

Avoid this if you don't like armchair philosphy :) AND I preface this with warning it is long-winded rambling stream of consciousness thoughts combined with other things I've even written elsewhere. I've had this in DRAFT form unpublished for more than a year from the time I wrote what is below and only came upon it again today because of a new post I'd placed on a topic that touches on a little of this one, too. See http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2012/05/christopher-columbus-and-jews.html
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This is all about spirituality and self-identity and being true to oneself while respecting other people. Every people and every person has a sense of purpose to existence or strives to find and fulfill one. It's an aspect of human nature. I'm not discussing or debating atheism vs theism or going to promote a pissing contest over whose religion or philosophy is "best", but I will talk about what people believe.

I think a spiritual void in modern civilization appears to lead many people who have have an identity void to feel entitled to appropriate the paths and identities of *others*. Taking on an identity not really your own isn't exclusive to the malicious, the huckster, the con, or the willfully bigoted troublemaker. People can be genuinely fooled in sincere acceptance and trust what they want to hear.

Yet, no matter the origin or motivation, in their so doing, rather than bringing them a sense of real identity and contentment of self-knowledge, it results in strife and escalates conflict.

In modern civilization, not just in the United States, the “melting pot” of so many different and conflicting cultures, histories, religions and philosophies there are many people living in a "spiritual vacuum".

**I specifically refer to people whose spiritual path, or sense of a spiritual nature is devoid of grounding in a sense of "self", a sense of who they are and who their people are and what their people's collective purpose and message is to the world through their own identity.**

I see this in so many different people who flit from one group, one religion, one identity to another. These people without a grounded center, a sense of *self in relation to others* often readily justify latching onto anything that fills that that void. This is how we live in a world where a science fiction author can create an idea that we’re all alien spawn and all women secretly want to abort their babies and all human problems stem from experiences while in your mother’s womb…and hundreds of thousands of other people can be gullible enough to believe it and where celebrities are spokespersons to promote it. ( the late L. Ron Hubbard, his Scientology and the Hollywood celebrities that follow it)

We live in a world where ethnocentrism isn't considered a virtue but it is still widely accepted in the manner it has taken on new forms. Rather than what more overt forms of this thinking inspired in the past, to try to eliminate peoples and religious or spiritual paths once claimed “inferior” by outright mass murder, the socially acceptable methods employed are assimilation, appropriation and identity theft. Fake Indian nations and groups are big business and show utter arrogance in their sense of entitlement to take ritual items, symbols, names and stories and misappropriate them for whatever purpose suited them. The "Black Hebrew Israelites" with their New Testament doctrine and racist ideology and the equally deceptively named "Messianic Judaism" in it's different forms based entirely on which Church is sponsoring them, displays extreme self-righteousness in their entitlement to claim Divine authority to either negate outright, or redefine Torah to mean things antithetical to Torah and Judaism.

All while claiming utmost love for the very people's whose history, spirituality and cultures they've hijacked and misappropriated very offensively.

Too many people who possess this spiritual void and lack of who and what they are are easy prey for the charlatan. They claim no responsibility for bad behavior to do so because they come from a paradigm that teaches "let the buyer beware" and that freedom means that you're free to do anything or say anything you want to say if you can say it is your "freedom of speech" to do so.

A more respectful way to live and actually honor any other group is to stop ignoring the ill effects such entitlement perpetrates. It is not respect that inspires groups or individuals to appropriate the identity, symbols, culture and history of another people and pervert those things by turning them topsy turvy, most often to impose beliefs that are offensive to and violate the laws of the authentic nation people.

The impostor groups also simultaneously declare great love and loyalty to the identity they claim while the words they use to speak of the original people display hatred and insult to the laws, ethics, values and the actual peoples whose identity they hijack.

While I'm only detailing a couple of different groups this applies to more than just the two I'll talk most about here.
The surviving Native American Indian nations and the Jewish covenant nation people have many different groups who openly display bigotry and hostility to the original nation peoples they will claim to *be* while they simultaneously corrupt and distort their histories, traditions, laws, and their different spiritual beliefs.

Other common experiences shared by these very different peoples:
Any individual or group that speaks out *against* the bigoted display of entitlement to hijack and remove the right of a people to maintain their own unadulterated history and laws, is then chastised as the bigot and condemned for their hatred at not being "tolerant". The commonly hurled deflection is to say you hate us because you don't want to give us the freedom to choose what to believe. This is also projection, but it is often effective to their co-religionists.

Sometimes the mention of love of all people or brotherhood is even brought up to deflect the misrepresentation of identity or history or belief.

The Europeans would not have survived on the shores of the foreign continents had it not been for the mercy/civilized assistance of it's native inhabitants who taught them how to find and cultivate foods. This was the case for both North and South America.

From farming methods of the Natives of the northeast that taught Europeans how to rotate crops to ensure soil fertility that when imported to Europe staved off famines that had regularly plagued parts of Europe for thousands of years, to the 5,000 year old weaving techniques of the Peruvians that were incorporated into textile making, to medicines (aspirin among a great many others) to systems of law (Ben Franklin and other "Founding Father's" directly credit) borrowed from the Iroquois, the Europeans were far behind in many areas thought to represent "civilization". Modern farmers still use an adaptation of the Iroquois "three sisters" system of corn, beans and squash that preserve soil fertility.

In a time when the very lives of early European astronomers were being persecuted for their "heresies" to declare the solar system to be heliocentric, the Incas and others had accepted and gone far beyond this in astronomical knowledge.

The native inhabitants of the Americas helped the very peoples who committed genocides. And the effort to eliminate them still exists, although rather than through outright murder, this is continuing through assimilation, discriminatory laws and other forms of socially acceptable bigotries that are even sometimes perpetrated in ignorance.


What can we do if we are genuinely caring for another but wish to learn about them and the wisdom that another people may have to share and not misappropriate?

There is a difference in sharing wisdom and culture with one another in the methods I illustrated and in misappropriating the identity and spiritual wisdom and life of other nations.

As humans who wish to know brotherhood and respect for one another we also hope to learn from one another. We can learn from many different First Nations Peoples..but they key is to let us learn what they want to TEACH us.

ASK rather than take. Some things can't belong to every person. Mixing the customs and religions of the different nations who still survive is not respecting them. Their ways belong to them.

Use that guide for any people, not just the different nations of the Americas.
Those precepts are what I wish people would also do for Jews. The world would be a much nicer place if people behaved in a way that simply respected the rights of peoples to be different from one another in their own purpose and path.
Jews are more open with our beliefs and practices than many Native peoples, but we are also accustomed to seeing this openeness abused in the same manner. We don't proselytize when we share to help dispel misinformation that leads to hate.

Perhaps if history and sociology courses included the topic of cultural and religious identity theft, tragedies of the past may be averted from repeating themselves in new forms.

If we can't learn this lesson, we are indeed doomed to keep repeating the history. The legacy of culture vultures, no matter which one's bones they're trying to pick clean, will ultimately doom the vultures, too.

Finding out who you are and where you belong may lead you to a path you might not have always chosen for yourself before you began a search to learn about the past of your ancestors, but if you don't know where you came from, it is certainly easier to get lost.

You may decide that the people you came from are not the people you wish to belong to now and your loyalties and path is elsewhere or you may decide that someone else strayed away from where you should have been all along. But if you decide to be a part of a particular people or path, you can't redefine their criteria for membership/citizenship to suit YOU, you are obligated to abide by their laws. If you don't meet their criteria for belonging, you haven't really found your people if that's the case.

Shalom y'all.

Mama Pajama ~ Defender of Bunnies and Jews

If you see me in Y/A and wonder why the recent (temporary) name change to: ✡mama pajama✡ Jew-kissing bunny

And why do I have a muscle bound Blonde, Mogen David chested, blue bunny-slipper wearing femme fatale super hero image here?

First, I’ll tell you what it isn’t about. I don’t spend my days in either bustier or bunny slippers, nor do I parade around with a massive Star of David on my chest, though I do often wish to return to the days when my figure was closer to the shape of that Super Hero than that of the bunny slippers.

It's all about trying to overcome the desire to cry in astonishment at the hatred of others, to overcome feeling helpless and trying to keep from feeling hopeless for a new generation of children whose minds are being utterly abused into the mental illness of extreme bigotry to incite them to want to murder. Yes, murder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqobBa_tB1M

After I saw this link on a question in Y/A, I thought, what better commentary to a child abusing sick person dressed up as Jew-killing Jihad bunny teaching hate to children could there be than a real bunny actually kissing the hand of a Jewish child that was already there on my avatar!

So, I answered:
While fantasy Jew-eating bunnies are being used to teach children to hate and want to kill Jews and Danes, take a peek at a real bunny, (an Eastern Cottontail Rabbit), *kissing* the hand of a Jew!

my avatar is a photo of just that event!

Shalom y'all

Then my son, the owner of the bunny-kissed hand said, that's you Mom, “Defender of Bunnies and Jews“

And that’s what inspired me to go create my "alter ego" in Super Hero style

Mama Pajama, Defender of Bunnies and Jews

edit: I post this edit after I notice that today, 1 day after I received the "Best Answer", the *question* was removed. I am sorry I do not recall the exact question, but the gist of it was to ask what passages in the Quran support the teaching of a "Jew-eating Jihad bunny" teaching Muslim children to kill Jews and Danes. I know that I am still genuinely curious what passages or teachings of Islam they could possibly use to support that. I guess I'll never know...

Carter apologizes now it's Keilor's turn

While Googling for other things, somehow a link to this article shows up:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.keillor16dec16,0,225627.story

This was a surprise. I had often laughed listening to A Prairie Home Companion while driving my car. I doubt I’ll ever listen again. Consider me xenophobic if you want, but when someone like this rants at Jews in a bizarre diatribe, it is simply yet another bit of evidence to me that it’s become socially acceptable to scapegoat Jews under the guise of being a good Christian once again.

I would have expected something like this in 1939, but looks like we close 2009 with the same sorts of potshots coming round again.

Please read the article and then click on the page that says “readers respond to Keilor’s Christmas rant” comments from readers. I really like the response from David J Ansel below.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-keillorgallery1218,0,196967.storygallery

I also found this blogger's page interesting
http://trueslant.com/ginawelch/2009/12/17/garrison-keillor-please-leave-nonbelievers-alone/

Where does this sense of Entitlement to negate the right of Jews to Jewish law lead next?

After reading a few recent answers on a popular online q and a forum this week, I’ve a few questions of my own. I will write about them here because these are the kind of questions that I know from experience would have Jew haters swarming them with reports to hide them and would see all correct Jewish answers from all over the world with massive numbers of thumbs downs for that same purpose. It has been so disturbing to see that Answers forum being rendered ineffective for people to obtain accurate information about Judaism and to see it being used daily (with apparently the q and a forum condoning much of it) used as a platform to propagandize hatred to Jews by some willful misinformation (blatant lies)

The following things run through my mind, and especially after reading answers from a few who claimed to be actual Christian clergy. I hope very much that they also lied about that. I know they lied egregiously about Judaism and history.

I often wonder how many Christians believe that they have entitlement to use their New Testament to redefine the laws of all other people? Is it considered ethical in Christianity to disrespect the laws of another religion and claim that the other people do not have a right to their own laws?
Do Christians believe that the world's Jewish people do not have a right to Jewish law that Jews have always and still believe is eternal? Do Christians believe that if Jews state that worship of anything other than God violates it we are "persecuting" those who hold to those other beliefs?

Then tell me why statements such as the following remain unchallenged or uncorrected by so MANY other Christians?

"So to answer your question, yes, of course Messianic Jews believe in Christ, and are therefore part of Christendom---but that in no way negates nor abrogates the fact that those who were a part of the house of Israel (I.E. were Jews) continue to be a part of the house of Israel after coming to faith in Jesus Christ. Today, Messianic Jews (as well as other Jews who believe in Jesus) are simply standing their ground and refusing to allow their detractors to define who they are FOR them---they are refusing to allow themselves to be disenfranchised and run out of the Jewish community---and more power to them for doing so!"
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It isn’t up to Jews to determine who or what defines a Christian. It isn’t up to Jews to define the laws of other religions or other peoples. However, I often see Christians claiming with authoritative speech that they support people who wish to negate or redefine Jewish law in opposition to it.
First of all, what determines identity as the "house of Israel" the Jewish people, is Jewish law.
If or when a Jew adopts a belief in another entity other than the incorporeal, indivisible singular God/Creator of the Torah, according to unalterable Jewish law recognized by every movement of Judaism across the world and for more than 3500 years, that renders that Jew as apostate and estranged from membership in the covenant nation people Israel (the Jewish people) unless they repent and return.

That paragraph up there I quoted reflects what Jews the world over are experiencing from some evangelical Christians who demand and insist that Jews accept as Judaism, aspects of dogma that God directly prohibits FOR the Jewish people. When Jews say this we aren’t running anyone out of the community. A Jew who has chosen to worship Jesus left Judaism of their own free will. Judaism has never permitted worship of anything other than God and never will. People can freely join or leave Klal Yisrael (the community of Israel)To add insult, as that paragraph indicates, they're telling others that Jews are hateful to apostates because we refuse to permit forms of worship that are forbidden by unalterable, eternal law from the Holy Scriptures of Judaism, the Torah. Not to mention that the apostates among them worldwide number about fifty thousand out of the approximately 400,000 to 500,000 Gentiles call themselves “messianic Jews”. It is only because of massive media and evangelical campaigns that such a small group has so much attention and because of their outspoken antisemitic claims while claiming to be the “real” Israel and “real” Jews.

Why is this unchallenged by Christians when statements like this are said daily and now taught with evangelical campaigns on television and at churches? Don't Christians also follow the commandment,"You shall not bear false witness"?
Why are Christians falling for this new form of antisemitism from people who claim to love Jews while they simultaneously demonize Jews for simply speaking to the truth of what Judaism has always been about?

I quoted a small portion of a much longer answer that was really so over the top with lies about Judaism I think I’ll share it here to show just how desperate and how intense the hatred in this individual must be. If someone spends a great amount of time and effort to fabricate some really absurd lies about another, you know they’re not doing it out of love.

NOTE: I will comment at the < mark from time to time below: * Now, read on to show some real “Christian love” for Jews from that same individual: “This issue gets confounded by a few false premises that are vocally promoted by some Jews today. The first is the silly notion that being Jewish is merely a matter of religious belief. This idea is a ludocrous farce because the original Jews were the physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. While the scriptures plainly teach that God's covenant was established with Abraham and "in Isaac shall thy seed be called", and while it used to be universally recognized that Jacob (Israel) had twelve sons, whose descendents were the ancestors of the Jewish people, we're being told today that any reference to Jewish peoplehood constitutes adhering to "Nazi propaganda" and saying that Jews are a "race".” < What a way to try to pervert what Torah says and Jews have explained. NO, Jews say we are a *people*, and those of Abraham’s “seed” who passed along the covenant were only those who accepted the covenant. Not all his descendents according to the Torah were the Jewish people. Only his descendents through Sarah. It is a non-Jewish and Nazi propaganda notion of Jewish identity being based on "blood" or "race" rather than determined by law. This particular person has had this explained in detail previously, too. Not all Jews follow Judaism or are all Jews “good Jews” but if they follow another religion or god they’re definitely no longer being Jewish, and more importantly, they have estranged themselves by their own free will according to God's commandments in the Torah.

“Obviously, there is no Jewish race, but there IS such a thing as Jewish peoplehood. Others can JOIN them (I.E. convert and become Jews), but in doing so, they are becoming an entire part of the Jewish people, not just adopting a new religion.” < They key word there where he self-contradicts is *not just adopting a new religion* he actually admits despite himself they must adopt the religion to convert. To JOIN they MUST adopt the “new religion” and that’s been a part of the process of BECOMING a member of the Jewish people since the time of Abraham. You can't convert to Judaism if you believe in other deities. You can't convert to Judaism if you don't make affirmation of faith in God to the exclusion of anything else and the convert affirms to uphold Torah.

“Besides, the entire line of thinking that being a Jew is merely a matter of religious belief is a nonsensical yarn from git-go. Even FULL-BLOWN ATHEISTS can be considered Jews (so much for it just being a matter of religious belief)! “ < Jewish identity is based on Jewish law. Jews don’t say that it is “merely a matter of religious belief” to be considered a member of the Jewish people. We say Jewish identity is based on Jewish law that God gave us. JUDAISM..the religion, IS a belief and the laws DEFINE that belief and the membership criteria of who and what is permissible for the Jewish people. An Atheist can’t CONVERT to BECOME a Jew since affirmation in the faith of Judaism is required to convert *just* as this preacher even admitted a couple of sentences earlier. His lack of consistency rears its head again.

 “There is even one major, recognzied, so-called branch of Judaism that won't even affirm for sure that there is a God in Heaven--and they focus almost ENTIRELY on Jewish peoplehood! There are totally secular Jews, and Jews whose defiance of the Torah is absolutlely shocking." <  He is histrionic in overstating the numbers and significance and calls a controversial small group of "Humanistic" Jews a "major branch" of Judaism. Why such deception?  Their focus is upon living the ethical precepts of Torah.  That is not nearly as defiant of Torah as worshipping a man as God incarnate in violation of the affirmation of faith , or the abomination of human sacrifice forbidden and condemned many times in Tanakh in the harshest of terms. Again, if they were born members and are simply following ethical precepts of Torah, they are sinning in not worshipping God, but they are still fulfilling many Torah obligations to strive to righteousness, justice and mercy. A secular Jew has not committed idolatry. Many non Jews fail to grasp the significance of the strict obligation placed upon a Jew to NEVER worship anything other than God.

"There are Jews who practice witchcraft ("Jewitches"), homosexuality, even Buddism (Jew-Bu's), yet their Jewish status isn't even questioned.” < He knows this is a lie.  The Torah says no other gods, it doesn't name every false god out there. This preacher knows that Jews have told him this claim was a lie every time he'd said it formore than a year.  I note he also slips the sin of homosexuality in there among belief systems as if it is the same thing as the idolatry of  worshipping a Buddist goddess or Jesus or a Wiccan goddess.  Homosexuality is a sin in the Torah but it isn't one that separates the Jew from his people as God commands foreign worship does.


“Some Jews pick and choose which commandments from God they find personally "meaningful"--and flatly reject the rest--yet they are considered Jews.” < Isn’t this interesting, someone who wants Jews to IGNORE the core commandments from God in the Torah for Jews  complaining about cherry picking Jews! He's clearly not consistent especially when he insists upon ignoring direct commandments from God  for Jews nor does he observe concern over ",Do not bear false withess!

“But you let a God-fearing, Torah-observant son of Israel--circumcised on the eighth day, Bar Mitzvah'ed, and reared on synagogue life study the evidence and reach the conclusion that Jesus is the Messiah, and Presto-Chango, merely for this belief alone, he has supposedly lost his Jewish status and has morphed into a gentile. Could a bigger bunch of hogwash possibly exist? “<  First of all, I’ve never met or seen such a person who knew Judaism and followed it as a "God fearing, Torah observant" Jew who would decide that everything about it was wrong and then leave it for another religion. On the remote possibility that such a person did exist who would leave worship of God to worship Jesus, if they were an honest person they would certainly know that worship of Jesus is not Judaism.  His notion of a God fearing Torah observant person is someone who believes God lied to every man, woman and child at Sinai who affirmed God is ONE.  God told all Israel that God does not become a man.  The prophets all echoed that and said that no man becomes a god, either.  Yet, the core of Christian dogma, the New Testament, is that God either created a demigod through impregnating a human, OR became incarnate "in the flesh". There is no more egregious way to violate Torah POSSIBLE than to worship a man as a god or believe God became a man.

That is a sin that separates a Jew from God and from the purpose of the covenant of Israel.
Honest converts to Christianity from Judaism would not claim he’s still following Judaism. IF a previously Torah observant Jew were to decide to follow Jesus and rely on his sacrifice for atonement of sin rather than follow the Torah's and Judaism's precepts regarding these things that person would certainly know enough to realize he can’t follow contradictory belief systems. God calls human sacrifice an abomination and since we know that if someone "believes Torah" they would not believe in a human as a deity. Therefore, Jesus sacrifice was a human sacrifice, an abomination. Deicide is not possible since God does not die, God is not incarnate TO die.
Anyone actually raised to know a whit about Judaism who would reject it for Christianity would hopefully be a person  HONEST to remember that God declared human sacririce is an abomination for Jews, and know that worship of a Jew or through a Jew is an egregious violation of Torah to do based on even a rudimentary knowledge of Torah.

“And what's even more laughable (and so ridiculous that it leaves one reeling) is when you realize that JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF was a JEW! He never lost HIS Jewish status."  < Who knows? Nothing was written about him until more than a generation after his death. If Jesus was not a Jew he couldn’t have even been a messiah potential. That he finds his extreme perversions of what he's read from other Jewish posters,(Rabbis included) and his misrepresentations of Jewish law and history enough to make him “reel” in laughter, is revealing of the glee he takes in trying to create hatred and animosity to Jews by bearing false witness. I don’t want to sidetrack here so I’ll get back to addressing his absurd perversions of Judaism and history..

“In fact, the entire early Christian movement was simply an outgrowth of Judaism. The historical reality is that Jesus, the original apostles, and the entire original church were all Jewish. There were literally THOUSANDS of Jews who believed in Jesus, they were a part of the Jewish community, and they didn't somehow "stop being Jews" when they recognized Jesus as the Messiah."  < Hmm..how is it that somehow these “thousands” of Jews never wrote down anything during Jesus’ lifetime about him? We’ve got librarires full of Jewish writings contemporary to Jesus lifetime. Historical record indicates that rather than an outgrowth of Judaism it was an attempt of the colonizers and conquerors to assimilate Judaism into their Empire.


“This is the reason why the Jews lost the Second Jewish Revolt---Rabbi Akivah tried to acclaim Simon Bar Kokhba as the Messiah--which caused all of the Jews who believed in Jesus to have to step down rather than march under the banner of a false messiah. Rather than placing the blame on Rabbi Akivah for proclaiming a false messiah or on Bar Kokhba for BEING a false messiah, they blamed the Jews who believe in Jesus!!!! It was only after this point that this foolishness of trying to somehow renounce the Jewish status of believers in Jesus got started. It continues to this day“. <  This is an extremely absurd and bizarre attempt to pervert history. Christians had refused to ally themselves with the Jews against Roman persecution long before the Bar Kochba Revolt and were already considered a separate religion group by both Jews and Romans before this time.

BEFORE the Bar Kochba revolt and before Rabbi Akivah ..Rome had already considered Christians a separate group because the early Christians petitioned the Emperor to do just that, recognize that they were not Jews.  The objective historical evidence for this fact is that  the emperor Nerva (96-98 C.E.) freed the Christians from paying the Fiscus Judaicus, the Jewish capitation tax decreed as a punishment for the revolt of 66-73 C.E.   The tax was placed upon anyone who was said to be "living a Jewish life".

Clearly, the Romans already regarded the Christians as a separate religion group prior to this time. The Temple treasury was raided in 66CE by the Roman governor of Judea, Florius and a massacre of Jews in Jerusalem by the Romans took place.

The early Christians did not take part in the FIRST revolt triggered by this massacre. THEY separated from the customs, beliefs and from the Jewish people themselves by this time and the Romans recognized and rewarded this!

Christianity has never been a unified belief, from the earliest days of the Didache (instructions to the apostles on how to conduct church affairs) there were conflicts on how much Judaic influence should remain (was Jesus a god or not?) and it was often a very nasty affair. The Gnostics were largely killed off by their fellow Christians, but some Gnostic aspects do remain. A study of the Nag Hammadi library (translations from the Coptic are online) can help you discern this. Christianity really has little to do with Judaism. It's a mixture of Roman and Greek mystery religions and focuses on death with Hebrew names and mistranslated texts.
Things that I once thought must have been fabricated outright I later discovered were beliefs of the ancient Greeks and Romans. This was the longstanding battle for souls going on..the Hellenized Jews, those who had become apostate to Judaism, desired to entice other Jews to worship as the Greeks that they believed superior in philosophy and knowledge, so they created texts that tried to say..see this is what it was supposed to have been all along. However, reality was that those beliefs were identical to the beliefs and practices that the Torah demonized and prohibited for Jews.
Once one begins an in-depth study of the religious practices and beliefs of all the peoples surrounding the Jews in the centuries just preceding the beginning of Christianity, one can see these developments take place. It was a concerted effort to do away with Israel and Judaism.

A large percentage of the early church fathers who became martyrs did so at the hands of their co-religionists of competing sects of Christianity when Christianity was not so clearly defined as a tool of the Roman empire.

Any entity that would threaten Roman authority would be persecuted by the Romans. Perhaps the earliest Christians (a band of followers of a messiah hopeful would threaten Roman rule, since the prophetic vision of Judaism of "the messiah" is of a RULER, a king, who breaks the yolk of political oppression and persecution for all and brings about universal brotherhood, peace and knowledge of God) would most certainly have been a threat. But once the doctrine of the New Testament gelled, that changed the Tanakh concept of messiah meaning an anointed king, to mean a sacrifice for sin and a "kingdom" not of this world, this had effectively changed the Christians from being enemies of Rome to tools of Rome.

Thus began the conversion of the Romans!

Emperor Hadrian later attempted to wipe out Judaism after Jews revolted against the previous Emperor, Trajan. He built a Roman temple to Jupiter on top of the ruins of the old Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which had been destroyed in 70 CE, and is said to have burnt the Torah on top of the Temple Mount in 135 CE .
He then renamed Judea, Palestina, a Latinized version of the name of the Philistines, to insult the Jews and eliminate the history of Jewish presence.

The early followers of Jesus who had been awaiting his reincarnation separated themselves publicly from the Jews once again in the time of the 2nd revolt, and once again refused to ally themselves with the Jews and allied themselves to the Romans. This time instead of simply passively ignoring the plight of the Jewish people, early Christians took up arms with Romans against the Jews. This led to another messiah hopeful, Simeon Bar Kochba to view them as the enemies of Israel, thus, after the defeat of the Jews and the murder of Bar Kochba, the Chistians were not expelled along with the Jews. Rome rewarded them a SECOND time for their refusal to be allied to the Jews.
Simeon Bar Kochba's revolt that saw to the Christians allying themselves in arms to murder Jews, was a generation AFTER they had successfully petitioned Rome to be recognized as NOT being Jews, because they did not live a Jewish life.

After Constantine - First Christian Emperor of Rome (285-337 CE) the Roman empire was Christian.


That poster knew all of this *before* he concocted his revision of the history. I know he knew this because he’d read these things in answers I’d written before and I'd previously pointed out to him when he tried to claim that both the Roman expulsion and the Holocaust were punishment from God for “rejecting” Jesus.

How’s that for love, eh?

If these perversions are the kinds of things that are becoming commonplace in churches is another Holocaust soon to follow?

I did not alter any portion of the other person's words.

Some Thoughts on Facing Antisemitism

To my fellow Jews

Some things to think about when facing antisemitism. This includes things I say to myself with increasing frequency related to the escalation of antisemitism I see daily online.

No one is beyond getting riled to anger. Remember that the bigots who want to do away with us *want* us to take on and display their inner turmoil and irrational hatreds. Work hard to control your emotions so you can recognize when you're being manipulated.

Antisemitism is growing at an alarming rate in the world once again. We cannot stand by silently, but if we speak only from emotional reaction our voice isn't likely to be heard by even rational people, many of whom can be fooled and swayed to do evil in the guise of good as history repeatedly shows. Your neighbors and mine are not unlike the neighbors of Jews in past generations who permitted the Holocaust. Too many people do not realize that simple truth. It took a great many“good people” to do nothing and turn a blind eye to allow hate to escalate to such a point. Is that happening again?

I would suggest to you that you learn as much as you can about Judaism and Jewish history...the older I grow, the more truth I see in the adage that those who "forget" the past are doomed to repeat it. We have new methods of spreading the same forms of hate being directed to us now (fundamentalist evangelicals hating us because we declare Christian dogma isn't Judaism!) and we've got seeming intellectuals buying into the history revisionism of the oil-rich Arab countries and extremist Islamo-facists regarding Middle East history inciting Jew hate to obliterate Israel. If enough rational people aren't involved in trying to stop hate, violence and bloodshed, in another generation if not sooner, the Holocaust may only look like a prelude. Others who claim to love Israel work for the day to bring about their Armageddon to punish the Jews who “reject” Jesus. I pray I AM wrong about that dread, but I cannot help but see parallels to previous waves of violent persecution that were preceded by several decades of precisely the same escalation of antisemitism, the same forms of propagandist accusations and stereotypes. I never thought I would see Jew hate existing in my life to the level I now see on a daily basis on the internet and in my own community and across the world.

Another adage can be applied here by replacing the word woman with Jews and man with gentiles. It may not be fair, but the fact remains that for a woman to be considered half as good as a man at a job she must perform twice as well. In the business world this double standard still applies in so many places. For Jews to be considered half as legitimate with rights to exist as Jews, the Jews must excel and show twice the level of ethical values as the Gentiles surrounding them. Jews understand this, non Jews do not. In the larger world view, Israel is held to standards that no other country on earth is expected or demanded to adhere to, and the countries that want Israel destroyed are ignored and aided in their duplicitous double standard. Jews across the world are held to the same double standard.

We are supposed to be a light unto the nations. That is the task that every Jew is obligated to do when we affirm our place as members of the eternal covenant of Israel, and Jews the world over are held to that role even if we did not choose it for ourselves individually. Do not forget that. We are also teachers whether or not we want to be. A majority of non-Jews in the world know very little about Judaism. Their ideas of modern Jews are formed by what they read in the news (biased against us despite the antisemitic canard of Jews controlling the media) the stereotypes of TV, what the New Testament says in error about Judaism with it’s demonization of Pharisees, and an important factor we must always keep in mind, the behavior of people around them they identify as Jews. Every Jew is a role model whether you want that role or not.

That's why Jews may sometimes be the hardest on one another when a Jew acts badly. We are a tribal family and we also expect more of our own while we work together for the benefit of all our extended human family in Tikkun Olam

How Intolerant of Me?

I've said this many times in a few different ways. Once in a while I think it bears repeating:
I raise my child as my parents raised me, to be respectful and tolerant of the right of individuals and groups to have their own unadulterated culture, customs and beliefs. My tolerance extends to the point where the expression of those beliefs violate certain standards of behaviors: If they attempt to violate another’s civil rights, seek to incite harm to anyone, willfully deceive another or misrepresent the beliefs of others then my tolerance ceases.


Since coming to Y/A and answering questions addressed to Jews about Judaism, I have been repeatedly called:
intolerant
hate-monger
bigot
of my "father" the Devil (that I do not believe exists btw, since I'm Jewish and that concept is outside my religion)
and chastised for "persecuting with jealousy and spite"
and far worse..
All of the above accusations were hurled at me for simply saying that the New Testament doctrine of scriptures is outside of Judaism and that the Christian religion is not Judaism!

The New Testament is incompatible with Judaism because of unchangeable Jewish law from the Torah. That is a plainspoken fact regarding the laws of the religion and not personal opinion. I don't demand or ask that anyone take on that aspect of faith. I do not demonize people who wish to follow New Testament doctrine as their spiritual path in life.

Would Christians be subject to similar insults if they answer questions that worship of Odin or Vishnu are outside of Christianity?

Then why should Jews be repeatedly subject to sometimes rabid insults if we note that the worship of Jesus is forbidden to Jews by our laws of Torah?

Torah teaches that God does not become a man. That is a core part of Judaism and what differentiated it from most of the religions of the ancient Levant. That won’t ever change about Judaism.

Christian Bible's concept of messiah fits Jesus. The beliefs of those who call themselves “Messianic Jews” fit the New Testament doctrine of the nature of God, sin, and their concept of messiah is at odds with that of the Jewish religion. When Jews are explaining the differences, not once has any Jew told the Christian that they're damned or evil for choosing to believe their doctrine of the New Testament.

This is all about being told that we do not have the right to explain Jewish law that has existed for more than 4000 years prohibiting worship of men as deities and human sacrifice and demanding that we worship God alone and rely on God alone for atonement.
When Jews declare that any other form of worship is OUTSIDE of Judaism and IRRELEVANT to it, we are accused of hate.

Jews are told to be “tolerant” of people who have no legal ties to the Jewish people who demand that they be considered the “real” and “fulfilled” Jews as Jewish and following Judaism. We are told to be "tolerant" of people who take every aspect of Jewish practice and impose concepts into them that are forbidden to Jews and call it “practicing Jewish custom”. We are told to be "tolerant" of people who have never been Jews claiming to be “Torah observant Jews” who turn that phrase meaningless by violating every aspect of Torah! We are told to be "tolerant" and call their preachers of the New Testament *Rabbi*! I refuse to call someone who has fraudulently appropriated the title of Jewish clergy by a title that was created by the Great Assembly after the destruction of the Second Temple, to refer to one great in knowledge and honor of Torah. They can call themselves "Messianic Jews", call their Christian seminaries "yeshivas", and call their evangelical clergy "rabbis" if they want, but anyone who knows Jewish law will know they're dishonest to do so. A real Rabbi is devoted to Torah, does not preach the New Testament, and takes years of study before this title is conferred by other Rabbis with an ordination (semicha). An evangelical "Messianic" title can be purchased online for $250. If you can prove you have "Jewish blood" you're a superstar and get a special gold seal title on your certificate where they'll trace your "tribe" by your name at different site. sheesh.

It does not change the fact that Jews know and God knows that as long as they worship to or through a man or assign to a dead Jew the power of God to atone, they are lying that their dogma is Judaism or Torah observant and committing sins against every other Jew, living and dead. Whenever they teach lies about Jewish belief and then claim to love Israel, they are committing acts that are no different from any other group of the past who has tried to eliminate the faith and covenant people Israel. When they claim that they are the "real" Israel and that the world's believing Jews are "cut off" and "hate then for their faith" they repeat centuries old antisemitic libel with new labeling. Should they die without teshuvah,they will be held accountable for this egregious sin, as were all apostates in Tanakh who tried to get Israel to worship false man/gods.

Judaism is more about deed than creed. The deed of deception about Jewish belief speaks far louder than any self-professed love for Torah and Israel. I see them as no different from any other group who is out to destroy Judaism.

Yet Jews do not even need to address that point or refer to it to be demonized and verbally attacked with the label hate monger.

We are told that if we say that human sacrifice and deicide are considered abhorrent in Judaism we are hate mongers when we are simply and straightforwardly describing what the Holy Scriptures of Judaism say directly. How is it bigotry to say that human sacrifice is abhorrent to our religion? How is it bigotry to anyone else to say that Judaism declares that God does not become a man?

Go figure

The divinity of Jesus, virgin birth, original sin, the Devil/Lucifer, vicarious atonement and an eternal hell for those outside the sphere of faith and membership in the covenant nation Israel are all contradictory to Torah and Judaism. To define the boundaries and beliefs of a religion according to it’s doctrine/law is NOT bigotry.

If questions or answers that simply explain core differences between religions and doctrines can be defined as "hate", then that would mean that every comparative religion class must be defined as hate. There is no hate involved in recognizing and understanding DIFFERENCES as well as looking to find common ground with our fellow humans.

The above includes an adaptation of an answer I gave recently IN Yahoo answers to a very good question by a contact there, The angels have the Arc Light. She asked, Is it intolerant to point out that certain beliefs fall outside the criteria for inclusion in your religion?

And the Best Answer chosen by her was succinct, “Providing factual corrections isn't intolerant. And when one is factually correct, it is more than annoying to have someone inform you that you're wrong. It's the Humpty-Dumpty syndrome - "words means whatever I want them to mean" - I suspect. When you're pointing out that the name of one's religion does have a definite meaning and that some beliefs fall outside what is included in that perfectly clear and well-understood (by the rest of the world) term, you are not being intolerant. Someone else is being crazy, tediously obstinate and totally narcissistic.” This answer was from another Jewish user and contact, Ambivalent LAUghter.

It is obvious that these accusations are upsetting and it is also obvious they are escalating and increasing in antisemitic tone.


I could fill pages of examples of this form of topsy turvy accusation of bigotry, but I’ll only show one here.
So I won’t be considering assaulting individuals, I’m not going to give their Yahoo names. The question was later deleted anyway, but I had saved portions of it at the time as it was simply astounding to me the level of hate directed to Jews that answers addressing Jewish belief inspired when all the Jews there agreed in simple straightforward language that the New Testament was not Judaism.

A few months back a question had appeared that asked about Judaism’s view of sin and repentance. One of the answers that appeared had absolutely nothing to do with Judaism, but gave New Testament doctrine in lieu of Jewish belief. The person claimed to be a “Torah observant Messianic Jew”. There was nothing at all mentioned about the Jewish religion’s concept of sin and repentance in the answer at all. The rest of the answers gave straightforward answer to Jewish doctrine. One quoted passages of Tanakh and the other three gave detailed references.

Each of the Jewish respondents had also noted that the answer that gave New Testament belief or referred to Yeshua or Jesus , did not give an answer coming from Judaism. No personal insult was made, no one said anything demonizing or hateful, but my answer did express dismay that “once again, a question asking about Judaism has had a response giving the doctrine of a religion that is incompatible with Judaism as an answer.” I said that, “Jesus is insignificant to Judaism. The New Testament concepts of messiah, atonement and the nature of God are incompatible with Judaism and thus irrelevant to this question.” The asker then gave an additional detail that went off on an absolute diatribe demonizing Jews for saying that and accused me personally of violating Yahoo‘s rules.

I then added an edit to my answer, and oddly enough I have had more than one occasion to use a variant of this edit after giving a correct answer about Judaism since this first time posting it:
“I am at a complete LOSS as to why the asker is making the accusation of a "flood of hate" in responses here and claiming I am breaking the rules. Giving honest information about Jewish belief, reputable references to support this information and doing so in a polite and straightforward manner are hardly hate. I see five answers here, four of them giving detailed and accurate information about Judaism and supporting the right of the Jewish people to maintain Jewish law for the purposes of self-determination and identity.
Three movements of Judaism are represented in the four answers, as well. All four answers are stated without hatred, without rudeness and three of them (my own included ) give many reputable Jewish references to support the facts of our answers. So, unless it is the case that I simply missed answers that were posted earlier and now do not show up here at all..the respondents who have so far posted are owed an apology for this additional detail from the asker>>>"That no one can apparently even mention Messianic Judaism without a flood of hate and insults from anti-messiah people. Even a top contributor here couldn't resist breaking the rules to persecute their own who embrace their Jewish messiah." (I was the only one with a TC badge that appeared so that had to have been directed to me)

Lastly, believing Jews are definitely not anti-messiah people, so I must also assume that comment was made to someone whose answer does not now appear. I am glad that apparently I missed that hate as there is far too much of it in Y/A.. Remember, Judaism is a messianic faith, the original messianic religion.

-------------------------------------------------

Then today a QUESTION appears that has this whole premise as the basis of the question..that Jews are bigoted to Jews who believe in Jesus. After receiving several polite and detailed answers that he proceeded to insult and call the users names, the asker removed his own question..that is the message that was posted when I went to edit a typo in my response that I’ll show here. I did not save all the other answers but I did save my own and had used my “back’ screen to save the question as I’d answered it.


OK I have a question on Messianic Jews *braces self* and LDS etc?
Apparently I am being dismissive and uncaring about how passionately these people are hated by the Jewish community. Help me understand (in a simple and brief way please)

Truly I can't get my head around it or like the way they are demonized by some. Not just that they are saying they can't be Jews, but that they are pretending to be jews in order to bring them all down from the inside. Perhaps they are idk... but how is that different from any religious sect.

I also don't get how Christians claim different sects aren't Christian, like Protestants, Catholics, LDS... all of them.

So really I want to know what makes them different, and why we can't all just get along.

I don't need it explained to me how Jesus wasn't the messiah or anything btw. I just want to know how people can be considered Jews and be practicaly secular, if anything just "bad Jews", but people who observe Jewish practices and just think Jesus DID fulfill the prophecies are excluded (even if YOU think he didn't)
--------------------------------------------
Before I post what I answered, I want you the reader here to now think carefully about how that question is phrased.

Do you see that accusation of hate and demonization hurled at Jews in the question?
He declares they observe Jewish practices..that’s a misnomer. Jewish practices are performed to honor Jewish belief. Performing behaviors of certain Jewish rituals but imposing dogma of the New Testament that contradicts the beliefs those rituals were created to honor does not entail Jewish practices.
He considers them a ‘sect” of Judaism. This is not a schism from within the religion or the Jewish people and all movements of Judaism are in complete agreement over this.
This isn’t about “bringing them down from the inside” at all, but an attempt to hijack and replace and have the world believe that the “real” Jews are New Testament believers and the rest of the world’s Jews are impostors..it is an attempt at identity theft and an assault TO Judaism. Period. This is the topsy turvy nature of all of this.

The saddest part of this is that this evangelical movement has now existed long enough and grown fast enough in the Christian populace that there are now a few thousand children who have grown up with a false sense of identity and understanding of Judaism. They believe themselves to be Jews, but have no idea that their concept of Judaism, Jewish law and identity is utterly contradictory to Judaism. They were raised to believe they were being persecuted for their faith in their Jewish messiah and actually fear the people that they claim to love and be a part of.
They claim love of Israel and the Jewish people while spending millions of dollars a year to remove our identity and faith in evangelizing efforts. That’s a very misguided love at best.
Now here is the answer that I gave there. It’s long, but thorough and if you read nothing further, at least scroll down to the bottom and read the ISRAEL INSIDER article.

HERE is what I answered. The questioner removed the question less than 10 minutes after this posted there:

I will also not be responding to any question of a schism within Christianity. It is sad this question includes a false accusation against Jews as well.

There is no branch of Judaism known as "Messianic Judaism" because ALL of Judaism *is* messianic. The principles of faith contain promises by God of a Davidic messianic age. Judaism is the original messianic religion. The concept and job description of the term messiah in the Tanakh is simply VERY different from that of the New Testament

ALL movements of Judaism are in complete agreement that this is an assault to Jewish identity by people who profess faith in the doctrine of the New Testament. Jews are not telling these people what to believe, but just trying to inform the world that these people are not being honest when they hijack the identity of the Jewish people. Not only do they try to hijack our identity, but their teaching attempts to remove from the Jewish people aspects of our faith as they often use the insulting term, "non messianic" to Judaism, the original and still existing messianic religion.
Their religion is not Judaism and this was not a schism within Judaism.
We currently have no other honest name to call them than what they were FORMERLY identified themselves to be before they decided that appropriating the name of Judaism to eliminate authentic Jewish identity was an accepted method of evangelizing., Hebrew Christians. The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America was known by the name Hebrew Christian Alliance from it's beginning in 1915 until 1975. Jews consider them Christian since their statements of beliefs are Christian New Testament doctrine and not Judaism. It is not the function or job of Judaism to give other religions their own names.

The term "Messianic Judaism" began around 1967 according to "Christianity Today" magazine. Their statements of faith are in contradiction to the statements of belief of every form of Judaism on planet earth. Every Chief Rabbi and Jewish organization of every branch on every continent you find Jews and every Jewish user from five continents here in Yahoo that I've seen posting on this issue are in full agreement. This isn't a schism within Judaism, It isn't Judaism.

If they called themselves something else you wouldn't see Jews showing up on questions such as this. BUT because Jews are obligated by the commandments of God in Torah to speak up to the truth of the covenant of Israel and because the Jewish people should also have the same rights as all other nation peoples according to the Declaration of Human Rights. It is the basic human right of the Jewish people and obligation to speak up for the right of Jews to continue to use Jewish law for self-determination!

Y/A is supposed to be a place where people seek knowledge and factual information. If Jews did NOT speak out when Judaism and Jewish identity is being misrepresented and Jewish people were being maligned as bigoted toward the rights of others to believe in whomever they want, that would mean that false information is condoned as fact. That should not be acceptable to ANY honest person using Yahoo as it is intended, Jew or Gentile. In fact, because Jews are so few in number, we hope that more people will stop turning a blind eye to this and also speak out for honesty.

Jews and Christians can and do get along wonderfully when there is honesty and integrity in communication. As a believing Jew of course I respect the right of others to their own beliefs and understand as Torah teaches that the righteous of all nations merit blessing. Misrepresenting the beliefs of others is deception and that is a behavior condemned by both religions, no matter how different our religions may be to one another on many levels.

These groups are considered antisemitic and are harming Jewish-Christian relations. A recent Jewish Herald Voice I received in the mail had a headline article about how “Messianics pervert Passover at some Houston-area churches” with a subtitle, “Deceptive tactics harm healthy Jewish-Christian relations, experts say.” I have personally been involved in interfaith groups and dialog for 30 years and it is my strong belief that the different deceptively named "Messianic Jewish" groups have done just as much to increase antisemitism as the propaganda of the Middle East. Daily insults and false accusations of bigotry to *them* and false accusation that Jews are persecuting them because they believe in Jesus in Y/A is clear evidence of this.

The New Testament is replacement theology and no more relevant to the Jewish people than the Quran is to the Christian.

This is NOT OPINION but Jewish LAW of the eternal covenant. They are not of the Jewish religion so they may not speak to DEFINE Judaism.

Torah does not teach Jews that one must be a member of the covenant nation, Israel, the Jewish people, to know or connect to God.

All humans are equal before God. God is not exclusive to the Jew. God commands the Jew to be exclusive to God. Isaiah and Jeremiah both echo that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. Micah sums it up well, "What Does the Lord Require of You? to Act Justly and to Love Mercy and to Walk Humbly With Your God"

They are most definitely free to believe whatever they want to believe. Mazel Tov on their choice of following the New Testament doctrine.

They simply will never ever be able to call it Jewish belief without Jews being forced to speak out to declare that is not true if they wish to call worship of or through a human a form of Judaism.

If a worshipper of Odin were to call themselves a "completed Christian" I think it would be expected that if a Christian said that Odin worship is outside of and irrelevant to Christianity, there would be no outrage displayed to the Christian for bigotry. Jews do not like to see Judaism misrepresented and Jewish identity attempted to be hijacked. If genuine respect and tolerance were being honored and there is someone who insists on misrepresenting Jewish belief and Jewish law and claims false identity, when Jews point that out with clear evidence that isn't something that should be declared hostile .

The assault to the rights of Jewish people to maintain Jewish identity through Jewish law is hostile to Jews and is creating antisemitism because they falsely claim that Jews persecute them for their faith in Jesus. That essentially says Jews hate Christians for their belief and fuels centuries of antisemitism. We just want them to stop calling themselves as following Judaism so that we don't have to keep coming along behind them to say..no, you're not. God defined in the Torah what is and isn't of the eternal covenant and the New Testament doctrine is contradictory to it. It is not Judaism.

it is not bigotry to declare that Judaism is not Christianity. It is fact.

Judaism IS a messianic faith but there is NO separate branch or sect of Judaism called "Messianic Judaism". The people who identify themselves as such follow the New Testament doctrine/scriptures and are thus, not of the Jewish faith by ANY stretch. More than 90% of the people who call themselves "messianic Jews" have no Jewish ancestry and are thus, not even apostate Jews. A group of people comprised of less than 10% apostate Jews who do not follow any form of Judaism, but only take Hebrew language, customs and holidays and impose replacement theology into then, does not get to redefine or hijack the identity of the Jewish people without the whole world's Jewish population of EVERY branch on every continent speaking in unison that they are not following Judaism. If they do not want to call adherence to the New Testament Christian, that's not a Jewish concern. Jews simply do not want them to hijack Jewish identity.

I am a Jewish believer. I am a real "messianic" Jew since my concept of the Davidic messiah is from the Tanakh. It has nothing to do with Jesus or the New Testament.

I am a monotheistic Jew. There is no trinity or tripartite deity in Judaism. There is absolutely no need to designate any particular branch of Judaism as monotheistic. It is every bit as illogical and redundant to have a phrase naming a separate branch of the Jewish religion as "Messianic Judaism"

I pray for the day when these explanations are no longer needed and such disrespect is no longer displayed to the Jewish people.

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Under source I listed these links:

http://israelinsider.ning.com/forum/topics/messianic-synagogues-target < a very enlightening and informative article
http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2009/04/jewish-position-has-been-clear-for-two.html Position statements from the world's Jews on this issue.
http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2009/04/because-there-are-groups-and.html < Regarding Jewish law to determine identity.