Beginning the New Year Standing Against Antisemitic Propagandizing Posed as Judaism

Beginning the New Year Standing Against Antisemitic Propagandizing Posed as Judaism

This is the rest of an answer that wouldn’t fit on Yahoo Answers and sadly was required to expose deceptive projection made to demonize Jews and deflect from honest answers with ad hominem.

The person I’ll call “JM” has given an ad hominem response that projects what they do to Judaism

I’ll address what I quote from him after each. “You're going to get two types of answers here. One type of answer is from the Jews. The other is from Messianic Believers.” < This is not quite logical.  Believing Jews believe in God’s messianic promise, at least he honestly distinguished those who follow the Christian Bible and call themselves Jews *from* the Jews.

Yes, let us do exactly what James asks.

“Let's examine the type of answers that the Jews here are giving.”< Please do, please examine in detail and compare and contrast what is said.  “They use words such as "lies and deceit" "financial bait and switch scam" "false" "apostates" "distorted" "deceptive" "dishonest" and "pretending to be Jews and playing Jewish dress up". Now these words can be facts or they could just be opinions.”  

  Let the reader decide if Jews have provided the evidence with Torah and those who have misappropriated Jewish identity own words here provide the evidence to what Jews say.

It is an honest obligation to speak out against those who bear false witness against Jews.  Remaining silent to the unethical behavior of those who wish to hijack Jewish identity and impose upon Judaism beliefs that God’s commandments in the eternal covenant call blasphemy and separate a Jewish soul from God  would be tacit approval if we did not speak out. Yet James calls standing up for honesty “nothing else than insult and attack”

That’s projection. 

“The real question you need to be asking is whether you can trust any group that does nothing else than insult and attack the other group?”   “attack the other group”. Do you notice that the New Testament dogma and their definition of Judaism is dependent upon misrepresenting and insulting Jews and Jewish belief while he denies they do so in the very presence of the insult? Note that they even insist upon using a term coined to insult Jews as lacking messianic belief to apply to us despite dozens of times appearing across Yahoo answers of Jews showing it is insulting.

“ If it is wrong to attack and insult, then can you trust them with any other information, site, webpage, or document they source?”

I agree with that sentence as it stands alone, however it should be clear by now that Jews exposing deceptive tactics to create animosity toward Jews and deflect from their fraudulent behavior of misappropriating Jewish identity by inciting hate to Judaism and to justify imposing forbidden beliefs and practices upon everything holy to Jews is not “attack and insult” but defending against insidiously harmful deception.

I think that claim is interesting for him to have made when his answer praises those who attack Judaism and at least one individual Jew under this very question? Not only was a respected Orthodox Rabbinical student libeled, but another used a term coined to insult Jews with the fallacious claim that we have no trust in God’s promise of the messiah and that we’ve abandoned a principle of our religion that we still maintain in steadfast refusal to impose idolatry upon it. Then another who claims to be an author insult Torah and Jews and Judaism and lie about the Tanakh and what it is Jews believe and do.     His answer is ad hominem projection attempting to discredit Jews who are honest about Judaism and who give Torah precept to define Jewish identity.  The scriptures of no other religion have authority to negate what God obligates Israel to be. God’s commandments in Torah are  the sole determinant of defining who and what is or isn’t Judaism

Note that JM makes no claims about it being Judaism himself. But he supports those answers that do call the New Testament dogma, Judaism. While he makes no reference to the phrase “Messianic Judaism” himself, he calls them “Messianic Believers” while failing to note that their messianic belief is absent from and antithetical to the messianic belief of Judaism. The whole issue is that they misappropriate Jewish identity and fraudulently call themselves Jews and their clergy Rabbis.

Belief does not define Jewish identity, but it can separate a Jewish soul from God and his purpose as a Jew and remove him from the covenant if he accepts a foreign god and idolatry. Refusal to accept idolatry is a part of the thousands of years old reasons why Jews have remained an eternal covenant nation. Jews may worship only the incorporeal Creator that all experienced directly at Sinai.  

While behavior is far more important than faith in Judaism, the ethical precepts of Torah obligate us to speak out against bearing false witness and doing so to impose idolatry upon the Jewish people.

If you wish to compare and contrast Judaism to the Hebrew Christian claims of being the real Jews, you cannot use the insulting fallacy to libel Jews as “non Messianic”.  When they are called upon how insulting that lie is, they try to deflect by saying that only means that they worship Jesus and Jews don’t. The claim is that “messianic Jews” believe Jesus and non messianic Jews don’t.  No, all of Judaism remains messianic and they do not have authority or capacity to negate God’s word on the matter of the principle of the covenant of Israel.  Jews who believe in Jewish messianic belief don’t follow false or failed messiahs and no believing Jew could worship a man.

 

Besides, that isn’t what that term means to them, they tell us that we don’t have a messiah if it isn’t Jesus. They insist we are without messianic belief ..because we refuse to abandon the messianic belief of Judaism and Torah. NON means without, messianic refers to belief in God’s promise of the Davidic messiah.  Judaism retains the original and *unaltered* prophecy from God in the Hebrew Bible. No substitute permissible, just as the New Testament redefinition of the nature of God is not permissible within the covenant. To permit the nature of God to be altered and believe that God lied, would negate the covenant itself! The nature of humanity and our relationship with God is also not up for redefinition or negation.

Here is another blog entry that addresses the reality of that insulting term. http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2012/05/who-first-started-insulting-jews-with.html

It is the Christian Bible that is NON Torah compliant. If they insist upon deflecting the issue of their hijacking Jewish identity by misrepresenting Judaism and Jewish belief, what else could you possibly believe that they say?

Jews are not telling anyone here anything false about their beliefs. We have gotten their beliefs directly from what they claim they believe right here.  We know that they are not a part of the Jewish people, not a part of the eternal covenant of Israel precisely because of the beliefs they express here before all.

 

The beliefs they express in their Statements of Fatih at any of the “Messianic Judaism” websites are the best evidence that they are antithetical to Torah despite their claims they “fulfill” Torah. They even had to redefine “fulfill’ to mean to put aside rather than to adhere to.

When the New Testament adherents calling themselves Jews address “non Messianic Jews” if they were to actually refer to Jews without messianic belief, that term could only honestly refer to secular Jews or to apostates such as the small number of their adherents who were actually born into membership in the Jewish people according to Jewish law who came from secular homes without Jewish education, or  atheists who don’t believe in God. To be without messianic belief is clearly not to be an adherent of Judaism.

If they don’t compare their beliefs to Judaism but to what Jews who don’t adhere to Judaism believe, why is that?  What is it they are trying to hide with such deceptive measures.

If you want to contrast the two religions, you need to honestly address the religion. Insisting you have entitlement to REMOVE from Judaism a principle of belief that it’s adherents have remained steadfast to defend against corruption for thousands of years is dishonest. It isn’t attacking anyone to point out that obvious and disturbing fact.   It is a principle of Judaism that we trust God’s promise of the messianic age and in fact Jews living the covenant helps the world toward such a state of universal justice, peace, brotherhood and knowledge and worship of the incorporeal God of Israel.  That there are people posing as Jews who are behaving in the ways we see demonstrated here under this very question is in fact, objective evidence that we are not in a post messianic age.  That people still worship Jesus and or any other entities, and that there are wars that rage and bigotries taught and there is attack upon Jews for upholding Torah without corruption is objective physical evidence we aren’t in a post messianic age. Their “second coming” was an attempt to circumvent those facts. 

Non Jews who have no legal (Torah) tie to the Jewish people have no authority or capacity to declare the Jewish messianic belief in what God promised Israel in the Torah to be non existent. If they say otherwise, they are lying.  There is that accusation JM wants you to believe is so evil to make, yet it really jumped out at me while reading his answer he has NO problem with the lies made about Jews and Judaism.   By praising those who lie that Judaism is absent of a belief Jews have held steadfast to for thousands of years and refuse to corrupt, he joins the lie. If he would lie that Jews and Judaism are without messianic belief, and the self-professed prophet of his god, Jesus would lie that Jews say that God cannot speak to anyone as he often claims, what could you believe about anything else either of them say? Now remember, I am using JM’s own admonitions and conditions regarding how we judge the answers.

And then you have JM telling us that the Jews are lying about what they believe. He lumps himself in with those who call themselves Jews there, yet he will deny that he is a Jew. So, what religion is he claiming that Jews lie about exactly? Is this more weasel wording?  I see nothing that the Jews have said here that misrepresents what the New Testament adherents continually tell us they believe or say. We are showing that what they say they believe is not compatible with Torah and ask people to read the mitzvot in Torah in context and judge for themselves.  I trust the reader can use their God given capacity to judge for themselves.

We know what they believe because they keep telling us what they believe and this is precisely how we know that it is not compatible with the eternal covenant of Judaism.  To worship a man as a god and simultaneously present themselves as having read and understood Torah shows us in this evidence that they believe that God lied to all Israel when God told them that God does not become a man.  If they believe the New Testament dogma that Jesus human sacrifice can atone for sin means that they reject outright what God told  Moses at Sinai in refusing Moses offer to take on the sins the Israelites who strayed. They obviously do not believe God telling Moses that no man may take on the sin of another, and Ezekiel the prophet, and other narratives throughout Torah and Tanakh declaring the same thing. They believe that humans are born in an evil state and their mangod must be appeased with a human sacrifice to “pay the price” and reconcile their evil nature, despite the fact that in Genesis God reveals that humans are born without sin and with propensities for good and evil and God gave humanity the ability to overcome our evil nature.  This is taught to all humanity, not just Jews, and taught the very next sentence after the very first time the word sin is mentioned in the Bible.

I’ve only scratched the surface of the deceptive nature of their efforts to hijack Jewish identity and replace and negate Judaism.  The only honest answers there are those who tell you that there is absolutely no movement of Judaism that is compatible with the Christian Bible and its replacement theology. They are not adherent to Judaism or the covenant of Israel. 

And I will also share there the links to their own Statements of Faith that they almost always hide with thumbs down so that others will not compare and contrast exactly what they profess to believe with Torah and with the beliefs of Judaism.

 

When they profess to celebrate Jewish holidays and festivals, they fail to say that how they celebrate them is to so egregiously pervert them that it is a horrific offense to believing and practicing Jews.

It is no different than the Greeks setting up idols in the Temple or Romans doing the same , than to see Christians  declare that worship of a man as a god and human sacrifice are Judaism.  NO different at all.  It is imposing idolatry upon Judaism and believing and practicing Jews would rather die than remain silent in the face of attempts to do away with the Torah. In fact, we are required to die rather than to become idolatrous. A Jew can violate almost every commandment in order to save a life, except commit idolatry, murder or incest and sexual abuse. While there are Jews thoughout the centuries who were sometimes forced to pose as Christian to save their lives, other Jews looked down upon them for so doing. I can understand both sides. 

Now as to his accusation of Jews lying about what they believe, in fact, what they hate most and have attacked me personally the most for doing over the years ( and a search of Answers can reveal this very openly )is when I post links to their own websites and particularly the websites of the different Hebrew Christian groups calling themselves Messianic Jews in fraudulence. Often there is histrionic response from them when ask people to compare and contrast on their own and use their own God given capacity of discernment to see just how their own formal statements fit Torah’s precepts and the Statements of faith of every movement of Judaism.  When I’ve listed the links that I’ve obtained from those who profess themselves to be Messianic Jews and post them, I’m often the target of vicious libels or malicious reporting and my answer is almost always hidden due to low rating by them because they do not want people to do that.  They know from past experiences it often creates a crisis in faith for those who had believed their lies that it is possible to be following Torah and Judaism and worship Jesus as a god and rely on his sacrifice as atonement.

That is indeed a lie to say that one can violate the very core of the covenant of Israel in blasphemous behavior and simultaneously be Torah observant.  To point out a blatant lie is not unjust, it is not viciousness, it is standing up for what God obligates us to do when we are commanded Do not bear false witness.

It is no less an attack on Christianity to declare it is not Judaism than it would be for someone to say that the Hindu religion is not Christianity.

“The other type of answer is provided by Messianic believers such as Devoted 1, Jesus made me kosher, Abiyah Messianic Torah, and DSM. Have you noticed how they are telling your what Messianic Jews believe and they are not attacking Jews or Judaism in the process?” < That is a lie right there. One of them lies about another respected Jewish user’s answers and each of the others makes insulting claims about Judaism and one uses a term coined to negate a principle of Judaism in a very insulting manner. To falsely claim Jews are without messianic belief is no less insulting than if you said non God believing Jews because that’s actually what they are implying when they lie to label Jews non messianic. They're lying that we don't believe our God's promise to us and a principle of our own religion. Judaism is not without our faith in what God promised. It is because we REFUSE to negate the eternal covenant and accept it's replacement with dogma that is directly forbidden and condemned by God in the Torah for Israel, they are attacking Jews and Judaism and projecting that it is attack when Jews speak out against their assaults to our identity and our communities.
The most repeated and common method is to attack Judaism with offensive lies and then when Jews point this out, we're accused of attacking Christianity and hating them for their belief in Jesus to deflect their misrepresentations about the laws in the Holy Scriptures of the Hebrew Bible, and their lies about what Jews do and believe. 

“The question is: Can you trust a Messianic Believer to tell you what they themselves believe?” <  Why is that the question? Did any Jew say you could not trust them to say what they believe?  If you trust them to tell you what they themselves believe why is it that they hate it so much when I share the links they’ve given in Yahoo answers to COMPARE and contrast their own formal and official statements of faith to what it is that Torah declares?They want you to read their links..but not while reading Torah and Tanakh in context and comparing and contrasting them on your own. They don’t want you to read their statements of faith and contrast them to the commandments of Torah that we point out contradict them.

I've never seen any post by a Jew that misrepresents what the New Testament adherent who professes to be a Jew declares themselves to believe.  When I've seen that claim made before by some of the users at that very question, they've never been able to come up with an example.

Note that the Christian missionary misinforming that he’s kosher claims that he is not following Rabbnic Judaism but right before that  he anachronistically refers to  Jesus as Rabbi because their New Testament calls Jesus a Rabbi.

Why would they simultaneously profess to reject Rabbinical teaching but yet their attempts to prove their Jewishness is most dependent upon adopting rituals and customs created after 90CE by Rabbis (the kippot, and some of the Pesach rituals for instance)   Christian theologians who know the history and archaeology know this reveals that the particular NT text referring to either Jesus or Paul as rabbis had to have been written after 90 CE, after the position Rabbi was created.

Rabbis didn’t exist until after 90 CE and if he can come up with something written before the destruction of the Temple referring to Rabbis, he will become world famous

They claim not to follow Rabbinic Judaism because they want to separate themselves from Judaism yet their practices and their own websites reveal they borrow from things the Rabbis created to keep and teach Torah in the absence of the Temple. They corrupt by imposing idolatry upon customs and practices that were created by the Rabbis they claim to disdain. Then they have the chutzpah to call their Christian clergy RABBIS.  Calling a New Testament adherent Rabbi is fraudulent.  That’s why Jews use the term fraudulent to   label their practices. A Rabbi is one learned and trained in Jewish law and who has received semicha. Someone who adheres to the new Testament could no more become a Rabbi than someone who is eating a T bone could be called adhering to a vegan diet.

Don’t take my word for anything I’ve said here. I hope you DO investigate. Please. I am depending on it.

That’s the only way you’ll discover what is real and that’s even what God obligates Jews to do in the Torah.

If you don’t trust my links..this means you don’t trust theirs also because some of the links I posted in past answers they hated so much were those I obtained from those who call themselves "Messianic Jews".

I have only ever met ONE who was an apostate Jew, all others were people who had various NON Torah /NON Jewish religion /law notions of Jewish identity.

A dream doesn't do it, being born to a Jewish father and being Baptised as a teen and worshipping Jesus doesn't make one an apostate, it makes one a Gentile hijacking Jewish identity. The British Israelite redefinition of Christians as the real Israel doesn't do it. Converting to "Messianic Judaism" and faith in the "Jewish Messiah Yeshua" doesn't do it. 

 Only God's word in Torah determines who is and what is of the covenant. That short list above includes just SOME of the self-professed ways that those who profess themselves to be the "real Jews" while calling all the world's adherents of Judaism, fake or "of the devil" ( that we don't even believe exists)

While I link to a past answer that gave the links I’d obtained,  I notice that every few months the MJAA website link to their Statements of Faith changes.  In each of the answers I’ve given, there is a slightly different link and currently it is this http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=rd_aboutus_statement_of_faith and not the link that I’d given at the past answer below.  It may change shortly after this has been posted, who knows! But you can always search. I haven’t reclicked on all the old links, but I do have a list of links and references that the Christian missionaries calling themselves Jews and the Jew haters hijacking Jewish identity use. If more of those links don't work, let me know and I'll go post some of the newer references they've given.http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=rd_messianicmovement_faq

Don't let them deflect that this is Jews misrepresenting what they believe OR that we "persecute them for their faith in Jesus". 
that's a retooling of the propaganda in Europe of the 1930's! That claim that Jews were persecuting Christians fueled many atrocities throughout the centuries.

This isn't about trying to convert them out of their Christian dogma, this is about them fraudulently claiming that their very different religion whose core doctrines directly contradict the core of Judaism *is* Judaism and that they have replaced the Jews with their New covenant of faith that is antithetical to the eternal covenant God has with the Jewish people.

That's a big difference.

I also recognize that there are those who sincerely believe they are ‘Jews” by adopting the Hebraisized versions of their Christian dogma and by imposing Jesus upon some Jewish outward rituals, but they have been misled and sadly, by people they believed in that they could trust. 

I do not believe all the people who call themselves “messianic Jews” are inherently bad people.  I have met a number who were simply misled and when they studied and investigated on their own, after their crisis of faith..some chose to be Christian, some chose to join the Jews and others were shaken into agnosticism or atheism. It’s always a shock when they discover what the Torah is really about.  It isn’t attacking anyone to point that out.

  http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090429100229AArdVD7  This answer is full of links I obtained from some of those who call themselves “messianic Jews” here under this question in Yahoo Answers. 

Now at this very blog there is a link that addresses most of the claims of the Christian missionary "Jesus Made" in his expression of how Jewish their practices are. You’ll see that repeatedly what he claims is Torah observant or practicing something Of Judaism is actually imposing idolatry upon it and insulting Jewish practice and belief so extreme that it is out right Jew hate in what they do.

Read A Side by Side analysis reveals much. http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2010/02/difference-between-messianic-judaism.html  In fact, if you’re here because you want to learn in depth about this question and came from the link at Yahoo here in 2014, then you may wish to click on and read all the articles I have under “Hebrew Christian” at this blog.

 I’d written the comparative analysis of those claims several years ago after growing tired of posting the same refutations over and over. It really is astonishing that they can continue to claim in the presence of people who know about Judaism that when they impose Jesus worship upon holy observances that honor Torah they are being Torah observant.  For someone to worship Jesus and claim it is JUDAISM is no different than if someone were to stand in a Baptist church and worship their “Lucifer” or “Thor” or any other religion’s deity and call it the real Baptist faith.

In such a scenario ( you may think unlikely) many Baptists would remain silent to seeing multi-million dollar evangelical campaigns to impose worship that their Bible forbids to them upon their beliefs and practices and insist the world accept it as the "real Baptist" faith and go around teaching and soliciting money in the name of Baptists while professing that any Baptist who says otherwise is persecuting them for their faith? 

Well, it wasn't that long ago that Jews around the world laughed at the early attempts by Christian evangelicals to present Jesus worship as Judaism.  The stereotypes they employed were absurd, who would believe them?  Well, they weren't effective in converting Jews, but there were an astonishing number of Christians that were enticed, and then many in their numbers began working harder in learning how to pose as Jews. 

This is a lot to read and I know I've likely lost many people already.  That's ok.  Those that I haven't lost yet may decide to share what they've learned.
I believe I made the point clear way back that they aren't a part of the Jewish people and their religion isn't Judaism.
.

I realize that their movement has now grown so large and so powerful monetarily and has been around now since 1967 meaning that there is a whole generation who grew up being lied to by those they loved that they were Jews and that actual Jews “hated them” for their belief in Jesus.  Jews don’t hate anyone who prays to Jesus for praying to Jesus. Jews don’t hate anyone who prays to any foreign god that Jews do not believe exists..Jews don’t worship those things though and we MUST speak out against those who bear false witness to teach that such behavior is acceptable within Judaism. God directly forbids the Jews from worshipping anything on earth or in heaven other than God and not doing our part to stand against the false witness is promoting injustice, the antithesis of Torah.

Throughout Jewish history when Jews adopted beliefs of the foreign gods of the people who surrounded us or who had ruled in conquest, the Jews suffered at the very hands of the people whose false and foreign gods they'd adopted.  That's a lesson repeatedly detailed in the Tanakh and afterward in history.

And Judaism does not accept that God lied to all Israel in their direct encounter with the Divine and Judaism does not permit that the religion would accept teaching that God lied saying God does not become a man.

So…if they’d simply follow their worship of Jesus without trying to hijack Jewish identity in so doing and without trying to impose that idolatrous worship into Jewish homes and mislead Jewish children in bearing false witness..Jews would not be obligated to speak out against it. 

If someone took your family name and were behaving in ways that were unethical, violated the laws of your people, brought dishonor and libeled you, it's hard to imagine anyone treated that way respecting those who did it , much less remaining silent.  How much worse when it is done in the name of God and religion and a part of the misbehavior is using propagandizing to make the target of their libel out to be someone justly condemned by God.